3538i is out

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Eugene Gavrilov, Jul 27, 2005.

  1. wmjordan

    wmjordan kX Driver @ China

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    I have downloaded the 3538i, and found that the Chinese translation has not been updated yet--though Eugene said so in his update list. It seems that He has forgotten to do it....

    Never mind, I will post the updated Chinese translation skin file on www.hanzify.org in a few days later. Actually, it is already ready....but....I can't get access to the web at home, and I have just forgotten to bring it with me to office.

    The updated Chinese translation includes some graphical translations too. :)
     
  2. opus4

    opus4 New Member

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    Thanks for adding SB400 (Audigy 2 Value) support!!
     
  3. kokoon

    kokoon New Member

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    the day a2 zs notebook is supported by kx i'll go to a store and buy it. can't wait to use kx on my laptop!!!
     
  4. nakamichi

    nakamichi New Member

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    kX 3538i - the final frontier...............of buggy drivers? :)

    First I have to report this:

    1. The kX 3538i driver is very buggy. Bugs so bad,I find this driver unusable for my card
    I uninstalled the 3538h driver,which I was using for a long time without problems,except for the bad bug in the 24/96 router with the red and green lights.
    Used Driver Cleaner Pro to clean up everything after uninstall.
    Installed kX 3538i and rebooted. After reboot,when kX Mixer and the driver were installed,there was a constant medium-volume white noise and the card wasn't doing anything but outputting noise.Even muting it didn't get rid of the noise.
    Changing the volume doesn't do anything either.Opened the DSP and I couldn't do anything.The right-click context menu does not work at all,so you can't add any effect,even "peak"
    This bug renders the card useless - having Audigy2 Retail (SB0240)
    Tried the speaker test - nothing,just noise.Tried fiddling with other options,but the driver screwed up the card from the start.
    Uninstalled 3538i and reinstalled 3538h,and now everything works great as before - stable and correct (aside of the annoying 24/96 router bug I mentioned before)

    The only thing I found interesting in this driver as a change was the "Show Contents While Dragging Window" option,which is very useful if you disable.Uses a lot less CPU when moving windows.
    I couldn't test if the 24/96 router bug was ever fixed,because of the bad bug in the driver.
    It seems other people with different cards do not have problems with 3538i,just SB0240 users (the majority of kX users have this card,I think)
    I also couldn't see what other features this driver offers,compared to 3538h,and if there was any change in performance and the effects and new features added in the DSP
    And,also I couldn't check whether 24/96 was still just a placeholder,or it was sorta half-working in an experimental mode,with a fair share of bugs


    2. Now,here's my mini test/review of the ASIO4ALL driver (for all of you waiting for kX 24/96 support):

    Tested with ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe MB (nForce2 Ultra),Athlon XP 2200+ at stock speed,512MB dual channel DDR266 @ 2.5-3-3-6,Audigy2 (SB0240),Radeon 9100,extremely light install of WinXP Pro SP2,stripped of nearly everything (install disk is only 100MB),heavily optimised for audio
    kX drivers 3538h <- *still the best* and ASIO4ALL 2.6

    24bit mode
    ***********

    24/48
    ------

    Got it running at -> 480 samples x 2 buffers = 10ms (not good,but using 2 buffers with Audigy cards is a bad idea),so...
    ...I set it to 4 buffers and got 144 samples x 4 buffers = 6ms -> See,using more buffers leads to being able to run at lower latencies and better performance. 10kX cards need 4 buffers,unlike all other cards,which work well with only 2.

    Recommended: Use 160 samples x 4 buffers = 7ms or more

    Rating: (7 out of 10)
    Very usable for low and medium complexity projects.Good for sequencing,but not that good for anything more demanding that needs lower latencies (<=5ms)
    Stable and good sync with tempo when using 4 software sound buffers

    24/96
    ------

    Lowest I got on my machine -> 480 samples x 4 buffers = 10ms

    safe setting : 608 samples x 4 buffers = 12ms or higher (Use the highest latency 1024 or 2048 x4 for Winamp/Foobar playback of music.For this kind of use higher latency = better = less CPU overhead)

    Rating: (4 out of 10)
    24/96 Not Usable for any projects,being a huge resource hog.For playback of audio files only (Winamp/Foobar) or for playback of completed projects in a sequencer with a relatively high latency setting.

    Rating for music Playback: (9 out of 10)
    For playback of audio files combined with HQSoftProc Resampling Plugin and Otachan's ASIO Out Plugin,it gets a 9 out of 10 :)

    16bit mode
    ***********

    16/48
    ------

    in 16bit mode it can go down to 1ms latency

    minimum: 64 samples x 2 buffers = 1ms
    safe setting: 96 samples x 2 buffers = 2ms

    Rating: (5 out of 10)
    Good performance,but very sloppy when using 2 buffers with Audigy cards.The tempo deviates a lot,so use 4 buffers.But with 4 buffers performance is way lower.
    If I would work in 16bit,I'd rather use the kX ASIO driver,though.It offers much better performance at the same accuracy (I can get even 0.6ms in Thread Sync Mode) and it's the most stable driver I've ever used.
    But,not many people use 16bit now.It's not good for even semi-professional projects.If I wanted to work in 16bit,a SB Live! or even my integrated nVidia SoundStorm using SPDIF out is enough :)
    You bought a 24bit card only to use it as a 16bit one? Bah. :)


    Heh,I haven't ever used the 16-bit mode before,until I tested this driver with the SoundStorm to check how it performs.
    Then I wanted just to try how it will cope with my Audigy2...and it was just as amazing,pushing the SoundStorm to just 1ms,and that was rock solid at 1ms :)
    But,when I think how I was able to run at 0.6ms with the 16/48 kX ASIO :) Seems this driver is optimized more for onboard chipsets and soundcards with hardware buffering

    What's more nteresting in this driver is that it supports 192kHz ASIO mode,but kX drivers do not at the moment and maybe will never do.With the Creative drivers,though,you can try out this 24/192 mode if you like :)
    I think anything over 96kHz is overkill,even 96kHz is in many cases...what will they use 192kHz for? Maybe for engineering and composing scary "songs" to ward off insects,bats,cats and dogs or for storing (meta)data modulated in the higher frequency ranges of the file.
    Sounds like a new form of distributing things,like for example "unlocking" additional lower-quality songs hidden in tracks as a bonus surprise,or distributing spyware,malware and whatnot in files.
    What's the point of 96 and 192KHz,when soundcards cut anything over 20kHz? So even mosquitos and bats won't benefit from it :) Even the full range of 24kHz (for 48kHz-sampled audio) cannot be reproduced by any audio hardware (speakers and amps can do this easily,but all players and soundcards cut it with a lowpass filter)

    This thing with sound buffers reminds me of VGA graphics cards: Double Buffering is fast,but there's lots of tearing,but when you switch to triple buffering,the picture is rock-solid(although with greater resource usage),but you don't need to use VSync at all,which means it's still fast :)

    3.Some questions:

    - What is the Remote IR option for in kX drivers anyway and why is it enabled at default? Is that for those platinum cards that come with an infrared remote,so you can use it in a similar way as you use the one that comes with your TV/VCR? Most kX users don't have a remote,so this should be off by default.
    - Which is the most precise ASIO sync method in kX ASIO? I'm not talking about performance this time,but highest accuracy to tempo and lowest deviation.
     
  5. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    i have removed all unneccessary posts relating to the "debate" that was raging here

    if you believe one of your posts was removed mistakenly please PM me about it
     
  6. nakamichi

    nakamichi New Member

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    You deleted my post about my buggy experience with the latest kX driver and SB0240 Audigy2 retail
     
  7. ROBSCIX

    ROBSCIX New Member

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    good solution stick...get the thread back on track...
     
  8. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    restored

    but this sort of post should have been in the 3538i bug thread in the bug reports forum
     
  9. Eugene Gavrilov

    Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator

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    guys, yep, the thread has went too far from its original topic. I guess you could start a new one - if you wish I could even stick it to be 'always on top', if necessary.
    --
    ursamtl:
    there's at least one major misunderstanding: when you ask, why 24/96 is not still available, why don't you ask me, not the forum users? the reason is absolutely unrelated to 'rare cards support'... the reason is related to my free time, which I do not share between '24/96' and 'sb22x' (for instance), but between 'kX' and 'not kX'.

    implementing 24/96 asio support is quite difficult due to present driver architecture, lack of documentation from CL (it is simply imcomplete), compatibility issues. major changes to the code require a lot of time and attention (one needs to keep in mind everything related to this feature), while improving compatibility and adding minor improvements is relatively easy. that's why, since I don't dedicate a lot of my time to kX anymore, it is easier for me to include into the driver minor improvements time to time than to, say, sit and code 24/96 support, which will take, say, 2-3 weeks (including debugging etc.)
    --
    opensource: there's no point discussing this at the moment. for the last n-years there were at least 2-3 people willing to help in the development. they said they were familiar with Windows Driver Model etc., but most of them disappeared due to some reason. I was ready to create a special semi-open version of the driver source code and separate the parts of the source they could work on, but this was never done since these programmers never wrote a single line of code. I cannot spend my time to create such development kindergardens for curious people and then answer hundreds of questions 'how do I compile the driver?'. there are no people willing to coordinate this opensource efforts, (and not only willing, but -capable- ). do you remember opensource.creative.com? and ALSA? so, opensource is not a panacea.
    --
    yes, the project hasn't been developing very fast for the last year, but:
    * it appeared when there was only 10k1 card on the market
    * CL 10k1 drivers were useless (in terms of ASIO etc.)
    * most features of the hardware weren't available to end-user

    but since that time, audigy and audigy2 were introduced, CL has improved driver quality, the industry went towards USB and FireWire solutions etc... the world is changing and we need to understand that: 10kX architecture is dead, CL will present its new chip, which noone will ever try to write custom drivers for. 10k1 was released.. hm... 6 or 7 years ago -- this is an infinity period for computer industry (just remember 486 CPUs :)) -- at the moment I see kX development just in improving compatilibity and, probably, some more openness to 3-rd party development (kX Addons, AC-3 decoding engine etc.), but not in revolutionary steps, such as EAX.

    kX played its role for audio enthusiasts (and it is still very useful for Live and Audigy users, even for Audigy2 ones!), but don't expect it will keep updating forever :)

    yes, I understand your main idea: lack of 24/96 makes kX less interesting for A2 users and this makes the project less innovative etc. -- and you see only two alternatives: either I postpone any of my present work and code 24/96, EAX, AC-3 Encoding, Super Intuitive Interface, Skinless and Skinful configurations, A2ZS Notebook support, etc, etc, etc, or I release the code of the driver to the community, find the programmers willing and capable to continue the development, instruct them about every line of the code, the pros and cons of the present architecture, all workarounds and quirks etc., and they proceed to 'alternative 1'. but both ideas are fantastic and absolutely unreal.
    --
    so, I don't see any problems using CL drivers if someone finds them better / more compatible / useful / whatever.
    --
    as for the future plans, they closely depend on two factors: 1. free time 2. my private personal interest. since I don't play EAX games and can live without it, EAX is not in my private priority (but if anyone tries to -develop- EAX for kX, I'll be very glad :) -- also, I -may- try to add very simple EAX1 support just to hear some reverb), but, for instance, I have a laptop with Audigy2 ZS Notebook, and I wish to keep using kX on my laptop, that's why I will try to add support for this card. also, I've read some bug reports (3538i-related) and will try to fix the bugs. and, finally, I will try to integrate into the 'final' 3538 release all the DSP effects developed by 3-rd party programmers to make end-user life easier. as for 24/96, well, ... as always, I cannot really promise anything. I don't need 24/96 support, since I don't have any mics or any speakers for me to feel the difference (in ASIO mode, of course), but this doesn't mean I don't want it to be implemented.
    --
    that's the project status as far as I understand it.

    E.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2005
  10. Tril

    Tril Triple screen racing ftw

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    I just installed the drivers. I haven't found any problems so far.

    Eugene, you asked me to send you the files of the plugin "TheDelay" to include it in the 3538i release and I did but it seems not to be included.

    So, I compiled the plugin for 3538i and posted it in the "Effects and the DSP" part of the forum.
     
  11. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    Eugene,

    Thanks for making the situation much clearer. I won't discuss all the points you made but let me simply comment on your statement that I should have asked you. I did write you privately on three occasions about the status of 24/96. The first time, last autumn, you never answered. The second time, this past March, you wrote back and said you'd answer in the forum. The third time, today, you told me to keep watching the main site for the announcement of the final driver with 24/96 ASIO support. However, others have always taken it upon themselves to speak for you. Whenever the topic was brought up in the forum, they stated you were working on compatibility and implied that your feeling was that this was more important than 24/96 ASIO. Since you rarely participated in the discussions, I assumed these people spoke for you. I now realize they were just making their own assumptions. Some were correct, others not.

    I apologize if some of my remarks seemed offensive, but please realize how frustrating these kinds of discussions can get. I asked simple questions about ASIO support and then immediately got chastized for somehow trying to take over the project, being disrespectful of your work, etc., etc. It almost reminds me of the George Bush comment about either one is with him in the fight against terrorism or one is his enemy. I know others who felt the same way, and as a result of the negative attitude they received just left the forum and gave up on kx. I stuck around because your last statement in the forum in March seemed to indicate that you hadn't abandoned the idea of implementing 24/96.

    In the end, you're right. 10kX architecture is dead. kx is still a tremendous boon for anyone with an old SBLive or Audigy 1 (I had my A2 by the time I discovered the PAX drivers, so I can't comment on them). However, for my A2 ZS, the Creative drivers offer more. Ironically, I held off buying the A2 ZS until I was clear kx supported it and you mentioned working on 24/96. Once I bought the card, I was hoping kx would catch up because I used it for several years and loved the flexibility and possibilities it offered. Creative's drivers seemed cold and inflexible at first, but I've learned to work with them and get good results.

    By the way, I don't agree with you at all on the issue of open source, but given that the 10kX architecture is in fact outdated, I don't imagine too many programmers would want to invest the time in programming it. I do believe, however, that open source produces superior software when the projects are carefully managed. Yes, there are some negative stories, but there are also numerous success stories.

    Anyway, thanks for kx and what it did for my old SBLive.

    Regards,
    Steve (Ursa)
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2005
  12. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Eugene..
    On behalf of anyone and everyone who may have made any negitive slant to your efforts - graciously accept appologies. I see both sides of the coin on this one...I understand the frustration users have.. haveing something sooo GREAT sooo close you can almost taste it - and I understand the HUGE undertaking by Eugene (although there are others listed in the credits, Eugene seems to be fielding all the heat).

    We (I) have no option other than use the drivers CL gives us, by a different card or be patient and maybe get all the cool stuff we imagined with KX.

    It is a shame more people arent willing and capable of easing some of the burden from Eugene.. But unless I learn to do it myself (dont anyone go hold their breath or anything) Ill choose patients.
     
  13. wmjordan

    wmjordan kX Driver @ China

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    It seems that dj_stick has also removed my post about translations.
    I didn't do anything "raging" there....

    [sigh]
     
  14. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    wmjordan: restored

    if i accidently deleted any other posts, just PM me
     
  15. RejZoR

    RejZoR New Member

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    I thought EAX 1.0 and 2.0 specifications are available to everyone. EAX 3.0 and 4.0 are Creative exclusive...

    Anyway i think that high pitch buzzing bug is now fixed. Haven't encountered it for a very long time and still counting.
     
  16. LeeJunHyeok

    LeeJunHyeok New Member

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    there's no EAX true support...OTL;;
     
  17. 2ndhannes

    2ndhannes New Member

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    Hello,

    I think it is great to take a proven, good technology to it's limits, as this can tremendously extend the lifetime even if it's abandoned by the original inventors: Take for example the socket 7 architecture or Intel's BX chipset. These became classics and are still alive, far longer than anyone could expect at their introduction.

    I would love to see the 10k1/10k2 architecture become such a classic, too, with the help of the kX drivers.

    The ability to write your own dsp plugins is something no other driver or card can offer, and for me this is the reason why I would never revert back to the Creative drivers.

    Seeing that you have limited time and ressources I of course agree that you can't support every new card, add all new features and so on.

    My humble wish for further development would be to provide a stable platform that can last a long time, keeping the plugin interface constant if possible to avoid losing external plugins with every driver update.

    Thanks for everything achieved so far, and thanks for whatever may come,
    Hannes
     
  18. du_volon

    du_volon New Member

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    How to turn ON Microphone with kx drivers?

    How to turn ON Microfphone with kx drivers?

    many time I can not find switches whick makes it possible to use
    recording with microphone
    woth SB LIVE with kx project drivers.

    Can someone help me ? -

    howto do it ??

    thanks you.

    Does this drivers makes sound better for usual music reproduction,
    that with Creative drivers ?
     
  19. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    See this guide to get your Mic working: http://kb.kxproject.lugosoft.com/guide/setup-mic.html

    A compatible kX sound card has better audio quality than using the Creative drivers (in my experience with an Audigy sound card) unless you have an Audigy 2 ZS which has the 24/96 recording feature.

    Music production is enhanced by using the kX driver and software (effects are hardware based, saving you cpu power, and DSP routing capabilities give you remarkable control over your sound card)!
     
  20. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    I don't mean to start another debate, but I think it bears mentioning that in some cases, certain software effects plugins can be better in terms of sound quality because their processing is done at 32 or 64 bits whereas the soundcard DSP only is 16-bit. Thus working within a DAW with such plugins can provide better results than running the data through the DSP chip and then back into the DAW at 16 bits.
     

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