3dm2k3's new policy; WHQL or official drivers only NO MORE CHEATING!

Discussion in 'Hardware Discussion & Support' started by digitalwanderer, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Colour Commentator

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    One problem with that......these sets WERE the ones that nVidia was pushing the review sites to use...... :hmm:
     
  2. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

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    so doesthat mean they better ban drivers most drivers? ATI and Nvidia optumze for 3dmark in one way or anther it just a matter of who gets cought ... last time it was ati on 3dmark2001/SE/quake 3 etc... that got cought cheating so this means so very little to me...

    some info on the old quake 3 cheating...
    http://www4.tomshardware.com/blurb/20020825/index.html#august_2001_nvidia_catches_ati_cheating

    I frgot were I fond the artical on how to mod 3dmark2001/se to do the same things....
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2003
  3. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

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    I would like to add on my radeon 64mb ddr vivo I was forced to stop gameing on it after needing new driver to play games ad the new drivers would couse lockups etc... in all direct x games/open gl games .the thing even crahes in 3dmark2001/2003 ... I sent the card back to ati and they said it's fine so I bet it has to be the drivers..... since it had the same problem in three diffrent computers... that what promted me to by nvidia in the first place I hadn't bought an nvidia since tnt2 m64's came out ... I sould countless ati in the past and talked many that were poised to by nvidia geforces to buy ati radeons.. upintill last year and my problems started than I bought nvida since not had a problem and was unable to get it remedyed though ati. So now I see in the middle as I watch the ati and nvidia fanboys argue it out. I am not that biast as I dont like ati or nvida but they have the top cards. I am bist about the unrealyability of 3dmark 2003 .... whos scores are more than questionable in the firstplace ... one example I just ran into here.... when i upgraded my computer the other day and lost 3dmarks but moveing ahead to some of the latest and greatest

    http://www.driverheaven.net/showthread.php?s=&postid=107926#post107926
     
  4. Optimummind

    Optimummind Banned

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    What sites, Dig? Back it up!
     
  5. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Colour Commentator

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    You're kidding.

    Seriously? Ok, I'll go hunt down some links. :rolleyes:
     
  6. HardwareHeaven

    HardwareHeaven Administrator Staff Member

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    stupid comments? excuse me?

    I own several nvidia cards so I would hardly feel that im biased, do you own an ATI card as well as the Nvidia in your signature to verify your open mindedness in this debate or are you just blindly defending the company who make your card?

    when review sites including the one posted on the front page http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/3dmark03_8.html , along with hardocp originally had the geforce FX they compared the performance with the Radeon 9700. They were supplied the 42.67 and scores rose through the roof. if you havent already seen this then I advise you check again.

    http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDI4LDQ=

    I mean how are we to bench the comparitive results of our cards anymore, shall we all lower settings to 16 bit to get a fair result or shall one company have an unfair advantage because its obviously producing inferior hardware? Futuremark are now aware of this and have restricted the uploading of scores using these drivers. Because its cheating. and im sorry if you dont like my comments but they are facts. pure and simple. If ati starting changing driver sets, lowering IQ or colour depth to increase benchmarks today then I would also post the same comments. I like the truth, not bullshit.

    its not only underhanded its attempting to fool people, and its insulting our intelligence and my main problem with this is. we arent stupid.

    I have held back with alot of behind the scenes information, perhaps if you push me, ill release it. it may get DH in trouble, but right now my patience with nvidia is at an all time low.
     
  7. CATALYST maker

    CATALYST maker ATI driver guru

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    Once again for the record,

    ATI will post only Microsoft certified drivers and they will be posted up to 10 times a year. I challenge anyone to find another company in high tech with such a solid driver update stance.

    The ultimate drivers in ATI's minds are the ones that find a delicate balance between image quality and performance. CATALYST (since they are WHQL certified) do exactly that.
    Not to mention we even have a control panel slider that lets you trade off some image quality for better performance. (This of course is within acceptable boundries).

    When will people realize it is not just about Frames Per Second anymore. The technology is so far advanced now...

    It is now based on Frames Per Second AND excellent image quality. (the key point is the words after the AND)
     
  8. DriveEuro

    DriveEuro New Member

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    Well at least we can still run betas. We just can't run 3DMark03 with them........ Right?
     
  9. CATALYST maker

    CATALYST maker ATI driver guru

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    WRONG...
    a) you can run all betas still
    b) you CAN run 3dMark2003 with them
    c) you CAN NOT submit scores to the 3dMark hall of fame database for only the three NVIDIA driver revisions that are banned for the moment

    This all does not impact anyones ability to run 3DMark.
     
  10. DriveEuro

    DriveEuro New Member

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    OH! I thought it was gonna affect ALL betas. Eh, who cares then. Certainly not me!
     
  11. CATALYST maker

    CATALYST maker ATI driver guru

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    Just wondering why would you care anyways if you can not submit a score on a beta driver?

    To actually lead an interesting discussion I would like to ask a couple of questions:

    1) What is a beta driver anyways. All my life I have interpreted beta software as something that is incomplete but will be revised and be evolved to a final completed product. In the graphics industry world people have taken "beta driver" to mean all sorts of things. So the question I have to people on here is what do you consider a beta driver

    2) You do realize that it would be very easy to do things in the driver such as: disabling sliders so that even though your slider says 2X AA you are actually at 0X AA which would really boost your score, or just not rendering the images to the DirectX specifications, or even just not taking the GPU cycles to draw the screen the way it is meant to be seen. All those things can easily impact benchmark scores. So the question is do you realize that caring *only* about performance as the deciding factor about which graphics card is better is very incorrect.

    3) You guys do know the value of Windows Hardware Quality Labs (WHQL) right? I went to the Microsoft site about it and here is the quote I found "Microsoft promotes driver signing (i.e. certifaction) for designated device classes as a mechanism to advance the quality of drivers, provide a better user experience, and reduce support costs for vendors and the total cost of ownership for customers." So I guess the quesion is has Microsoft done a good job letting you the consumer know what WHQL really is and what its value is?


    Lets discuss
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2003
  12. brc64

    brc64 Zeeky H. Bomb

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    I think most people consider beta drivers to be leaked versions of new, unfinished drivers. It seems that the hardcore (and even some novice) tweakers are always looking for that new edge, and are willing to sacrifice stability to gain a few exta performance points by using a driver that isn't quite finished. I used to think like that, but then I got tired of constantly changing my drivers, so now I stick with official releases only. So far, I've been happy with the results of that decision. :)


    I've never been happy with 3DMark being used as a benchmark. The points you get really are meaningless to everybody but the people who made the software. When I'm looking for information about a new video card, I tend to look for actual game benchmarks (specifically, ones that specify what quality settings are being used), and if possible, screenshots comparing image quality of two different cards.


    I've never cared much about WHQL. I have several pieces of hardware that don't even have WHQL-certified drivers, yet they function correctly with whatever driver I end up using. Maybe if I knew exactly what it meant for something to have WHQL certification, I'd care more about it... but right now, it's just an annoying window that pops up when I install certain drivers.

    - Me
     
  13. Mark_Fox

    Mark_Fox RIP

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    When it comes to drivers, people have many different interpretations of what "beta" driver is. In the days when driver "leaks" were happening on weekly basis, I used to attach term "beta" to them to give people warning that if they use them - its only at their own risk. I've done that with both nvidia and ati drivers.

    Extremly buggy drivers are also seen as "beta" even though they might not be or not intended to be by the software developers. There has been few of these in last few years.

    Both nvidia and ati has also posted drivers on their official websites attaching term BETA to them - warning people they either might get no support if they use them or warning people they might not be stable and have unresolved issues in them. I don't know what they mean by BETA in this case - perhaps they mean they are not finished yet.

    Of course, we can also go all fanboy here and say that all nvidia drivers since 40.41 has been BETA :evil: or all ATi drivers before catalyst 2.0 or something :lol:


    As to WHQL - I don't belive Microsoft has stressed enough the advantages of such drivers or have pushed companies to release WHQL drivers more often. NVIDIA certainly has not bothered much with WHQL recently, I really don't know why...:evil: Personally, I found that WHQL drivers do not always perform better then non-whql ones. They might be more stable - but a lot of people would prefer occasional error here and there for more speed (at least in the old days)...What would be best, is to see WHQL drivers that do not sacrifice extra performace for stability - and vice versa when it comes to non-whql drivers. I wonder if BOTH ATi and NVIDIA has got the balance just right...
     
  14. digitalwanderer

    digitalwanderer Colour Commentator

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    What's a "beta"?

    One I get my hands on before the manufacturer wants me to. :)
     
  15. kkevin666

    kkevin666 New Member

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    my 3dmark2003 system details says the whql on the cat 3.2 drivers are false

    i havent modded them at all

    running xp/sp1/dx9

    whats weird is 3dmark2001 shows them AS BEING whql certified

    Whats /whos at fault here please?
     
  16. CATALYST maker

    CATALYST maker ATI driver guru

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    Nobody is at "fault".
    Can you give me a screen capture of this and where it says that it is "false"? I can help investigate what is going on
     
  17. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

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    personaly the WHQL does not mean that there will not be any cheating/optumiseing in games and benchmarks ..... by ati or nvida so I don't know why people keep dredging it up..... they both cheated here and there so when you pick on one your picking on both in my book......:(
     

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