A Lesson for America

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by FuNsTeR, Aug 20, 2009.

  1. FuNsTeR

    FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud

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    we are not the English we kow tow to no one ... we are not lapdogs we will not be bullied or intimidated by anyone Anger from US as freed Lockerbie bomber flies home to Libya | UK news | guardian.co.uk

    unlike America we have compassion even for people who have been found guilty of murder ..... lets face the facts Megrahi was the fall guy ... the real culprits were the Iranians after the American cruiser shot down their airliner 3 months beforehand ... and the guy that comitted the act of bombing the pan am over lockerbie is languishing in jail in Germany ... he openly admit he was guilty of the crime which was ordered by Iran in vengeance ...America decided to blame Libya instead as Libya was seen as a softer target compared to Iran.

    Iran Air Flight 655, also known as IR655, was a civilian airliner shot down by US missiles on Sunday July 3, 1988, over the Strait of Hormuz, toward the end of the Iran–Iraq War.
    The aircraft, an Airbus A300B2 operated by Iran Air as IR655, was flying from Bandar Abbas, Iran, to Dubai, UAE, when it was destroyed by the U.S. Navy's guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes, killing all 290 passengers and crew aboard, including 66 children, ranking it the seventh among the deadliest airliner fatalities. It was the highest death toll of any aviation incident in the Indian Ocean and the highest death toll of any incident involving an Airbus A300 anywhere in the world. The Vincennes was traversing the Straits of Hormuz inside Iranian territorial waters and at the time of the attack, IR655 was within Iranian airspace.



    290 innocent deaths. The US eventually paid out huge compensation to the victims families but nobody was convicted and no apology was ever made indeed George Bush senior said "I will never apologize for the United States of America. I don't care what the facts are."

    I dont see the same moral outrage over this atrocity. Perhaps Iranian lives are cheaper than American
     
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  2. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    Are you are trying to make an argument that one event was identical to another event in history. The premeditated attack on an airliner by a country seeking revenge vs the accidental and tragic shootdown of an Iranian Airliner.
    The aggressive and flawed captain of a U.S. Warship engaged in a skirmish with Iranian gunboats after the ships helicopter was attacked earlier in the day. An inadequately trained crew manning the tactical suite onboard the American warship mis-identified more than one radar contact and the Captain, without the full benefit of the necessary information to make an accurate judgement chose to shoot anyway within Iranian territorial waters.

    Does the Lockerbie bombing resonate any louder than the Iranian airliner shootdown today?
    You tell me? Frankly we had no business engaging Iranian gunboats within Iranian territorial waters, nor did they prepare adequately for surface to air engagements in an area known to be congested with airliners, warplanes and our own aircraft from Aircraft Carriers.
    It has been proven that the the Vincennes crew made several fatal flaws identifying tagets, reporting data and interpreting the information about all the air to air activity. The Captain, with a reputation for aggresiveness is solely responsible for the destruction of the Airliner but he was defended vigorously by the U.S. government on the grounds that he made the best possible decision at the time, but history does not hold that argument in any favorable light now.
    Was it a crime? By any standard you apply, it was tragic, but did the Captain and the crew of the Vincennes knowingly engage a defenseless airliner and deliberately shoot it down. The facts, such as they are point towards a consecutive number of mis-judgements, poor training and poor judgement for the crew and Captain W.C. Rogers. The posture of the U.S. State department and even vice-president Bush further infuriated the world for decades. America's involvement with pre and post revolutionary government of IRAN was volitale at best. Various reports have been published by the U.S. government and a commsion appointed to investigate the facts and all bear out the character defects of the Captain of the Vincennes.
    The presence of American Warships was purely to protect shipping in the Straits of Hormus, but also as a "tip of the sword" measure to project power to all the non and aligned nations in the Persian Gulf.
    An Iranian terrorist organization with former ties to the CIA may have replaced the contents of a suitcase normally used for shipping contraband with a bomb designed to detonate on a civilian airliner over Scotland. Could more have been done to prevent this?
    Could the American government, with a strained relationship with Libya, Iran and other nations in the Persian Gulf intervened on the diplomatic level or on a covort level?
    Probably not, it would have happened anyway, as it was a premediated attack on the Pan Am flight with the full knowlege of IRAN and perhaps even the leader of the country of LIbya.


    But how can you support a statement about America and the depth of any one American's compassion or lack of compassion for a convicted criminal dying of cancer?
    I agree that the Iranian airliner shootdown was a tragedy. I agree that destruction of the Pan Am flight was deliberate and pre-meditated, but who is right here or wrong here. The choices are clear to me.
    Am I sympathetic to anyone that freely admits guilt in the bombing of a civilian airline, then I must say no. Would I allow him to enjoy the remaining days of his life out of prison?
    no I would not. But I am always curious about one thing.
    Did Libya appease the victims and the world when it paid compensation for the families of the Pan Am flight, or will we ever know the true depth of the Libya's involvement.
    Lockerbie was a deliberate criminal act. The destruction of the Iranian airliner was the terrible culmination of bad leadership and poor training and planning, but I dont believe, as i am using western eyes, that they are the same.
     
  3. FuNsTeR

    FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud

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    Libya paid money out to the families for one reason and one reason only ... to get back into the good books of the international community ... the man that planted the bomb is languishing in a German jail ... he even admitted it was his group that was behind the bombing ... it is well known that Megrahi is the innocent party in this ... Amricans want a innocent man die in jail for a crime he never comitted

    back to the Iranian airline being shot down .. the cruiser was in Iranian waters and the airliner was clearly in Iranian airspace ... yet your countrymen felt the need to shoot it down ... wether it was acidental or not they should have faced a trial for their crime all the same


    your politicians seem to think that America is above the law
     
  4. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    It is a well known fact about Libya's decision to reimburse the victims of the Lockerbie bombing is politically motivated whether they are indeed directly or indirectly part of the original plot for revenge. You mention that an innocent man is dying of cancer, but he was convicted in a court of law, and his innocence is a matter of conjecture as he was a former Libyan intelligence officer and perhaps is a pawn in a deadly game of appeasement. As he was a fugitve prior to his capture and trial and conviction and subsequently convicted as an act of appeasement I pity the poor bastard but even I am not totally convinced that we know everythng about the contribution he originally made in the Lockerbie plot. A Scottish court convicted him, and Scottish court can reverse that decision on moral or legal or political grounds, thats the system.

    The remark about "my countrymen or my politicians " is emotionally driven so I wont comment on why its necessary to continue doing so except to say that polarized thinking about U.S. government or choices a Captain of a warship is understandable but it is regretable.
    You can generalize if you wish and so can I about the Scottish courts and Scottish poeple but I know that isnt fair, true or necessary to sustain any argument I have about an issue, rather I base it on fact.
    Any bias based on the actions of another is just wrong, so I wont devote any more time to that.

    If you have the desire to express frustration with a situation or event you feel strongly about that is your business, but dont associate any average American with any administration, political leader or tragic event simply because I am American.
    I get that alot from Pub Politicians in the UK and I dont stop anyone from sipping a pint and bending my ear, so long as they dont get too personal.
    I dont make assumptions about your politics based on the actions of Scottish courts or politicans, I just dont think it is fair.

    Oh and one more thing, I think that "ALL" politicians think very often they are above the law. Politics is a dirty business and I am sure the odd miscarriage of justice is more common than we can imagine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2009
  5. FuNsTeR

    FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud

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    that is a very fair response :) i tend to agree with everything you posted especially about politics being a dirty business ... the past few months have proven this with all the mps in westminster under scrutiny for their expenses cllaims ... the Snp are the best of a bad bunch .... but as long as they continue to strive for independence for Scotland they will continue to recieve my vote and that is as far as my political views go
     
  6. FFVII - Cloud

    FFVII - Cloud Banned

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    You know it may not be OK to talk about this yet, but I'll say it anyway cause I believe you're telling the truth @ FuNsTeR. After 2012 and the New World Order gains control George Bush will be recognized for his atrocities upon the earth along with all other men responsible with him. He will probably end up going to the place he built for his own prisoners - Guantanamo Bay.
     
  7. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    without deviating from the thread too much frankie, but G Bush isnt a Stalin, a Hitler or a Tito or a Mao, he is was just a President, elected by the American People.
    the very world order you mention comes dangerously close to the Reagen and Bush manifesto and I would reconsider using that phrase.
    People vilify world leaders to meet their own particuler agenda, but in a democratic government, those that vote or didnt vote are all responsible.
    Many leaders have done far worse, and Gitmo is just one example of something that trancends even our century. It isnt new, it was just on the news.
    You should start your own thread with your own particuler views and entertain discussion on that level.
    You will find, if you dont already know that things are not always what they appearto be, and I personally trust the media as far as I can thrown a piece of cow shit.
    stay informed, but stay on the bubble and believe less of what you see and read and draw your conclusions from a variety of sources, and frankly you should read them all.
     
  8. FuNsTeR

    FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud

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    far from being a American hater .... i have the utmost respect for the US armed forces..... sometimes we disagree on some things ... but that is healthy .... sometimes we forget the sacrifices the American armed forces have made and still do .... american bashing is all to fashionable and sometimes i am guilty of it due to some foriegn policies i can't get my head round ... but all to often we tend to overlook what the young men of the American armed forces have sacrificed for us (the 4 countries that make up Britian ... i hate saying that word :rolleyes:) and the rest of Europe ... hundreds of thousands of brave young americans made the ultimate sacrifice ... far from home fighting for the freedoms we take for granted today against the twin evils of facism and communism
     
  9. comp_ali

    comp_ali Sniper

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    All the politicians suck **** , they all abuse their job for their own s**t.

    [​IMG]

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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009

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