American Thinks.....

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Shwompy, Jan 3, 2005.

  1. PoopyTheJ

    PoopyTheJ New Member

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    We're all slaves to everyone else, it's our responsibility to take care of everyone else....
     
  2. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    I wouldn't call it being a slave. I would though call it being a decent human being. Slaves are forced to act against their will. If someone is in genuine need of my help and it is in my power to do so I will often give that help more than willingly. It does not make me feel like a slave - rather it makes me feel happy that I am free and able to do so.

    GJ
     
  3. Captn

    Captn New Member

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    On a rather odd note, I actually agree with you.
     
  4. PoopyTheJ

    PoopyTheJ New Member

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    ok been a bit busy, donating of your own free will is a noble and good thing to do, you're valueing and supporting human life, forced donation VIa governemtn handouts is another thing all together and morally repugnant....
     
  5. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    To you perhaps - but to me it is not a matter of being forced. To me it is what I agree to when I vote for and campaign for the society in which I want to live. I want my government to set aside a certain proportion of the money I give them for events exactly like this. As I said it makes me proud and makes me feel free that my country and my government are in a position to do this when moments of extreme trajedy like this do arrise. It is about appreciating what freedom is and wishing for others to share in its benefits.

    There are though just enough selfish sons of bitches in this world who wouldn't ever contribute a penny for the privilege of living in the relatively free societies that we enjoy. They hide their selfishness and their greed behind a thin facade of half baked ideologies - and make themselves feel less guilty about their meaness by associating with the other mean sons of bitches of this earth who are willing to agree with them. Pretty soon they form pressure groups - and political parties - and in the end we all know where that sort of thing leads.

    But if I believe I am a compassionate persion, then I want the government I vote for to be compassionate too - and for them to represent a compassionate society. Those who argue against this, who say that the government should not represent the people, that the government that we vote for should not reflect the goodness and kindness of our society are probably little more than barbarians - and ther views and opinions in this regard should be resisted and rebutted at every possible opportunity.

    Still that is just my view. You are entitled to your own.

    GJ
     
  6. PoopyTheJ

    PoopyTheJ New Member

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    So compassion = theft from some for the benefit of others? Hmm interesting seems like your everyday criminal follows the same philosophy only they think they are the important ones and not some nameless faceless needy group. Organized crime, just what I vote for......
     
  7. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    I think that is a particularly warped perspective. There is no way to compare kindness and the will to see our society's reflect our basic kindness though our govenments and the people we elect to represent us to 'organised crime'. How can giving money to someone who has lost everything, has no prospects and no hope for the future, who's relatives and children are all possibly dead, to brutal killers and heroin dealers prepared to kill for every last grubby dime they can lay their hands on?

    And how is it stealing from me if I agree to it? Like I said, there are always a selfish few. But my solution for them is really quite simple. If you don't want to live in a normal decent civilised society - if you don't want to own up to the resposibility of what being able to do this means, if you don't want your government to be as compasionate as you believe yourself to be (or not as the case may be) then don't. Just bog off somewhere and go and live in a hole, or a cave, or under a stone or whatever - because ultimately that is all you really deserve.

    A lot of people who tout this idea of always just falling back on 'voluntatary contributions' can quickly be brought to account when you ask them exactly how much of their time or money they have contributed voluntarily to good cuases over the last year, or five years or through their whole lives indeed. Often the answer is not a hell of a lot.

    In their ideal world, if people are hungry they should starve, if they are cold they should freeze, if they loose their families and/or their incomes we should do nothing to help and if a disater strikes those unfortunate enough to be caught in it's path should all be left to die. And that is not a world in which I personally am prepared to live.

    GJ
     
  8. PoopyTheJ

    PoopyTheJ New Member

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    Apparently you ignored where I said if you value human life and want to give thats great....

    -If you don't want to live in a normal decent civilised society - if you don't want to own up to the resposibility of what being able to do this means, if you don't want your government to be as compasionate as you believe yourself to be (or not as the case may be) then don't. Just bog off somewhere and go and live in a hole, or a cave, or under a stone or whatever - because ultimately that is all you really deserve.

    So if I feel I exclusively have the right to benefit from my own labor, and am able to do so I desreve to live in a hole eh? My work my effort my labor, my life doesn't actually belong to me, I am enslaved to the needs of the masses eh?

    -A lot of people who tout this idea of always just falling back on 'voluntatary contributions' can quickly be brought to account when you ask them exactly how much of their time or money they have contributed voluntarily to good cuases over the last year, or five years or through their whole lives indeed. Often the answer is not a hell of a lot.

    Yeah guess what because over 30 percent of my life goes to pay for a huge government beaurocracy and some nameless shiftless shapeless mass of the needy. The other time I have I can actually make something for myself, and that goes right out the doors to bills etc. So guess what with forced charity I CAN'T go donating cause guess what it's already stolen from me to give to whoever and whatever has the greatest lack of something whether I agree with it, or would rather have it go to some other worthwhile charity....

    I think it's great to give to the benefit of where you choose to give, or to add value to peoples lives, but not to who you tell me I should give to....
     
  9. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    No, you live in a society where you are free to work, free to vote, free to bitch (as you so readiliy seem to be doing) about your government. Those very much are freedoms. In a world where there are so many places where that is not possible I would even go as far as to call that a privlige - and it is a privlige I am prepared to pay for. I am happy that someone else less fortunate than me can benefit from the efforts of my labour - and if I can help them by supplying what it takes for them to be able to stand on their own two feet and understand for themselves what to be free really means, then I am only too happy to do so.

    And yes, if you don't want to pay taxes for the privlige of being free, for the streets that you walk on, for the services that you and civilisation depend on, then you probably do deserve to live in a ditch - because without a willingness to pay, much of what you see around you would not exist. Your ancestors would never have climbed out of the ditch to begin with.

    But anway we are unlikely to agree on this. This debate is only likely to go on indefinately - as it has for a long time before these forums were ever formed. But I often see it as being a bit like the kid in the shool playground who is told to share his candy. Some quickly learn the benefits of sharing - while a few never do.

    The problem with a lot of people is that they confuse kindness with politics. They think that generosity of spirit towards others is some kind of socialism. But really kindness is just kindness - and meaness is just meaness and it doesn't matter at all how much you try to dress it up or make it more acceptable. Government may sometimes be a pain in the butt - but I rarely think about it so much that it would make me want to see someone I knew to be in trouble or to be suffering to simply be left to die. I certainly wouldn't invent an entire elaborate ideology over it, just so that I could feel better about being a downright tight fisted and mean SOB.

    Like I said anyway the argument doesn't ever really add up to much (literally) because the kind of people who put these kinds of arguments accross rarely if ever give anything to good causes on a voluntary basis anyway. There are plenty of people I know who are a long way from being rich (or even just moderately well off in many cases) and who on the whole are on very low incomes, but they still manage to pay their taxes without complaint and give regularly to a vast array of good and charitable causes. How is it then that they can do this, when others in a much better finacial position than many of them, are so blatantly unwilling to do so?

    For me it is nothing more than a double contribution - and a willing one at that. I give my government money because I know that the have the organisation and the resources to get it to the place it is needed most quickly - and I give what I can on my own to those causes which sometimes it is simply not in the remit of my government to support.

    Again as I said, that is the choice that I make. You are entitled to make your own. Even if that does mean that ultimately you do go and live in a hole.

    Freedom isn't just about our readiness to take from the world - it is about our willingess to give something back too. And if you cannot accept that, then perhaps you do not deserve to enjoy any of the freedom that you currently have either. There is a price - but then again nothing in this world is for free.

    GJ
     
  10. PoopyTheJ

    PoopyTheJ New Member

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    - I give my government money because I know that the have the organisation and the resources to get it to the place it is needed most quickly - and I give what I can on my own to those causes which sometimes it is simply not in the remit of my government to support.

    Ahh thats why only pennies out of every dollar make it to where it's earmarked for the rest gets eaten up in administrative and wasteful expenses, thats what I love paying for, although this isn't the argument....

    The thing is Raid you view my lifes labor, sweat blood and tears as somehow yours by right, or that you have some say in how my life is spent. You don't. My life is my life to live as I choose, freedom is not a privelege, freedom is the natural state of man and all men are free, reality dicates freedom. Dictators rule only by the will of the people. You sir are nothing better than a petty looter and thief hiding under the veneer of education and sophistication, a false sense of rightness based on your belief in your right to mine and other individuals labor. I can think of no better reply than Hank Reardons thoughts in a
    "mixed" economy courtroom from Atlas Shrugged.

    "No, I do not want my attitude to be misunderstood. I shall be glad to state it for the record. I am in full agreement with the facts of everything said about me in the newspapers - with the facts, but not with the evaluation. I work for nothing but my own profit - which I make by selling a product they need to men who are willing and able to buy it. I do not produce it for their benefit at the expense of mine, and they do not buy it for my benefit at the expense of theirs; I do not sacrifice my interests to them nor do they sacrifice theirs to me; we deal as equals by mutual consent to mutual advantage - and I am proud of every penny that I have earned in this manner. I am rich and I am proud of every penny I own. I made my money by my own effort, in free exchange and through the voluntary consent of every man I dealt with - voluntary consent of those who employed me when I started, the voluntary consent of those who work for me now, the voluntary consent of those who buy my product. I shall answer all the questions you are afraid to ask me openly. Do I wish to pay my workers more than their services are worth to me? I do not. Do I wish to sell my product for less than my customers are willing to pay me? I do not. Do I wish to sell it at a loss or give it away? I do not. If this is evil, do whatever you please about me, according to whatever standards you hold. These are mine. I am earning my own living, as every honest man must. I refuse to accept as guilt the fact of my own existence and the fact that I must work in order to support it. I refuse to accept as guilt the fact that I am able to do it better than most people - the fact that my work is of greater value than the work of my neighbours and that more men are willing to pay me. I refuse to apologise for my ability - I refuse to apologise for my success - I refuse to apologise for my money. If this is evil, make the most of it. If this is what the public finds harmful to its interests, let the public destroy me. This is my code - and I will accept no other. I could say to you that I have done more good for my fellow men than you can ever hope to accomplish - but I will not say it, because I do not seek the good of others as a sanction for my right to exist, nor do I seek the good of others as a sanction for my right to exist, nor do I recognise the good of others as a justification for their seizure of my property or their destruction of my life. I will not say that the good of others was the purpose of my work - my own good was my purpose, and I despise the man who surrenders his. I could say to you that you do not serve the public good - that nobody's good can be achieved at the price of human sacrifices - that when you violate the rights of one man, you have violated the right of all, and a public of rightless creatures is doomed to destruction. I could say to you that you will and can achieve nothing but universal devastation - as any looter must, when he runs out of victims. I could say it, but I won't. It is not your particular policy that I challenge, but your moral premise. If it were true that men could achieve their good by means of turning some men into sacrificial animals, and I were asked to immolate myself for the sake of creatures who wanted to survive at the price of my blood, if I were asked to serve the interests of society apart from, above and against my own - I would refuse. I would reject it as the most contemptible evil, I would fight it with every power I possess, I would fight the whole of mankind, if one minute were all I could last before I were murdered, I would fight in the full confidence of the justice of my battle and of a living being's right to exist. Let there be no misunderstanding about me. If it is now the belief of my fellow men, who call themselves the public, that their good requires victims, then I say: The public good be damned, I will have no part of it!"
     
  11. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    I don't care about your money. I care about my own. I consent to paying for my taxes - and for the other things that the responsibility of living in a free society requires. I do this because I believe that nothing in life is really free - least of all freedom itself.

    If you don't want to pay, that is up to you. As I said, there is no known instance in human history where a society has ever flourished without taxation and without paying for those things that we need in order to make the society/s we live in
    civilised, fair and just. Ideally in your world there would be nothing but ditches, or rocks for common slime and profiteers to crawl under.

    Not everything in this world is simply about money - and what I can get for me, now, or how rich I can become or how much food I can stuff down my kneck, or how fast I can make my next dollar. Believe it or not, there are things more valuable in life than money - and if you do not have these, no matter how much money you acquire, I think you will always be poor.

    And your phiosphers do not interest me. As I said selfish people are free to form allegences with other selfish people - if and when they so choose. The fact that they are often capable of creating long and painful speeches and arguments in some lame attempt to justify their intrinsic selfishness does nothing to lessent it's impact, or it's immorality.

    And I have never stolen a penny in my life. Though I would galdly give you one if I ever thought that you might be in genuine need. It is simply sad I think that all too often that when it comes to people such as your good self, that this sentiment is so rarely returned.

    GJ
     

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