Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Dyre Straits, Apr 3, 2007.
There have been around 35 school shootings in America in the last ten years.
I am sure Google can provide you with more confirmations.
US govt needs to accept the reality and see that there is a problem, and it needs to be solved.. I understand that this can't be resolved overnight, but they need to lay much stricter laws or better a complete amnesty. In any case, the victims were pre selected, and someone in such state of mind would do anything to get a weapon..legal means or not. Although there's no denying that US laws makes this much easier.
However there is also the arguement that if someone had a conceled gun, this rampage would've ended much sooner. I'll let you be the judge of that statement.
It should also be noted that most people against guns are non Americans because they believe that there is no need to own a gun coz they've never had to own one since there is no need. American's are bred into a very paranoid society where self protection of the evil out there is vital...well supported by the fact that in US one can kill someone by law to protect his/her property.
I don't mean to bash US coz I've enjoyed my holidays there, and like the people...but there are certain aspects that just tick me off.
Might have been a good idea for their parents or anyone they know not to legally own a gun. Do you think it would reduce the chance of a shooting? Methinks you may have inadvertently stumbled upon a good reason not to allow the bearing of firearms. Well done sir!! 1 rep point to you!!!
Would our psychologically disturbed S.Korean frien in Virginia been able to line up a group of young people and execute them with a knife? Or would the same group of people have rushed him en masse? Very hard to know what would have been the outcome. Or is it?
Maybe you could argue that the individual who illegally supplies controlled narcotics within the campus and routinely carries a concealed firearm could have been a hero yesterday and shot the f**k out of the Korean.
I might as well reply.
IMO anyone who thinks okay for an ordinary Joe to possess a firearm (even though it may have helped in this situation) is surely missing the point.
Lets just say that this guy was not able to buy a firearm in Virginia for $550+. Lets just say that all gun shops in Virginia were closed down 25 years ago following changes to Federal legislation and the consitution and that it was now illegal to possess a firearm.
1. Would the probability of this crime taking place have increased or decreased?
2. Would the probability of the number of school shootings that have happened as a result of students using their parents guns have reduced or increased?
1. The probability of this crime occuring would have been reduced
2. It is probable the number of school shootings would have decreased
Less availability of firearms probably reduces the rate of deaths caused by gun crime
I was shocked to find out that so many people died on this latest spree. When I first heard (read) about it, it was 2 people, then I went to bed, woke up and read about 33, wtf?
All I know is that I strongly believe that if some of the students/victims had guns with them, the murderer wouldn't have managed to kill 33 people.
Also, I found this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting from another forum and I am suprised I haven't heard of it before. I would remember reading about it.
could have, would have, should have. the genie is already out of the bottle, the guns are already out there. more gun control laws r not going to help. though i do agree virg laws are lax. bottom line if somebody really wants a gun, no amount of gun control is going to stop it from happening. if a person wants to kill someone(s) & has no concern for his life he will find a way & will probably succeed unles he is an idiot besides being crazy.
wished i knew what the answer really is. i lean more towards societal issues than any control/ban of handguns.
Should it be recommended that all university students and school kids carry guns to defend themselves against any potential threats at their place of study?
Yup I agree. The use of firearms to kill and injure is just a symptom of a greater illness within society. I'm not a believer in ignoring the symptoms if there is a remedy easily available.
Well at least some one had clue about that guy and his emotional issues....
First, I didnt' say anything about school kids, or babies having guns.
Second, not recommend, but freely allow university people to have.
As for the murderer, I don't think that someone writing "disturbed" plays is a reason to believe someone is going to go on a killing spree.
The guy got ditched, who knows how exactly, was already carrying a lot with him, completely lost it. Shit happens. I just feel sorry for the families involved.
And I do believe that the university was 100% wrong in how they handled the case. No warnings to the students, nothing. Someone should at least lose their job over this.
Gov Ed Rendell of Pennsylvania after the Amish shcool shootings last year,
"No proposed law ... none that I've seen, could have ruled out this situation," says Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell, a Democrat and a gun-control advocate."
After the Pennsylvania attack on an Amish school in Lancaster County, anti-gun Gov. Ed Rendell had a remarkable moment of candor when he admitted that tougher gun laws would not have stopped the gunman. "You can make all the changes you want," Rendell said, "but you can never stop a random act of violence by someone intent on taking his own life."
I am not suggesting that this is what you inferred BlueMak but I am asking the question in response to your point:
Should it be recommended that all university students (and maybe even school kids over aged 14+) carry guns to defend themselves against any potential threats at their place of study? The reason I include teenage children is due to is due to SFOSOK's point below:
I would still like someone to look at this example of children using their parents guns to balance scores at school. Would the likelihood of these school shootings happening have been reduced if all parents were not allowed to keep guns at the family home?
Though there are shootings in the schools of the USA, they are (in strict numbers) very very few. To propose or hint a ban of firearms because of this low number of deaths, is too much IMO.
The latest shooting did not take place with stolen guns, or with a gun taken from a parents safe. Is it possible that if all guns were banned this person would not have killed 33 people. Yes, definetely. Would it make a large enough difference throughout the country in terms of how many people are killed or crime in general? I don't believe it would. The number of people that just lose it and go on a killing spree is very small in absolute numbers. People that lose it and want to kill their spouse or a co worker, will/would do so anyway.
Now, I never said that 14 year olds should carry guns and as far as I know, I am not SFOSOK. What I said and I will say it again is, if among the 50-150 people directly involved or witnessed the latest killings were a few, perhaps just a couple of gun carrying owners, then perhaps by the end of the day, after the shooter killed his ex girlfriend and that man, we would only have 3 dead people instead of 33.
I agree a 100% with what you said. But you know, even though gun shootings at school is rare, that's children, the future of the nation we are talking about? And I mean, I know some schools have metal detectors and all in the US and I dunno, that just doesn't seem "right" if you know what I mean?
But again, maybe stricter gun enforcement would be better than a total ban? If that was the case, maybe the killer wouldn't have had a gun, and yes, deaths would still happen but far less? Gun crime drops when guns are tougher to get a hold of... It's logical to me and yes, it wouldn't stop total gun crime but if a gun is expensive, tougher to get a hold of and such, it would have an effect no?
If somebody wants to kill someone else, it's always possible but somebody goes at someone with a knife, there's a chance he can defend himself with brute force. It's a much more "realistic" scenario than someone as young as a college student owning a gun that he carries 24/7 on him (at least to me)
Maybe whats needed are different types of handguns.
These handguns would have to be: equally lethal, of course, could probably be designed and made to look the same, weigh the same, maybe even with the same recoil. A handgun that doesnt fire BULLETS, but some other type of projectile. Maybe an electrical charge. Something that could kill as easily as a bullet.
But built into the gun would be a safety, that would not allow the gun to be discharged within certain perimeters. These perimeters could be around all schools. You could have them around your home, and another feature could be that you could discharge your own "newhandgun" within your own perimeter, but only your gun can be fired within that perimeter.
Then, you could collect all the old handguns, and stop manufacturing handgun ammunition and levy heavy punishments on those caught with "oldhandguns". The existing gun controls are probably good enough to use in place with newhandguns, as far as buying them goes. Also, in the case of theft you could build a tracking device into the gun. you could access its location on the web.
Haha! Would probably never fly, but its a suggestion. I'd be interested in hearing ideas for possible SOLUTIONS to the problem.
Solutions? Sure here are some ideas:
Improve the lives of millions that are poor. No more people that are desperate because of not enough food/money.
Improve families. Make people pass certain criteria before they can have children. I have seen people (especialy in the UK) that have children for the social (read money) benefits! Also people that their idea of having a child is having a toy that takes care of itself. The parenting in most countries is horrible. Childrend are being treated like adults when they should be treated as CHILDREN.
Proper education to parents to stop/never start lying to their children. Apart from the obvious problems, children grow up not trusting their parents.
Better education, official education regarding relationships and sex. Not just one. From an early stage.
Justice that works. No more people getting away with a crime because they know someone or because they have enough money/influence/whatever.
People refusing to do what is wrong even if it benefits themselves.
So, unless there is a world movement for the improvement of the human race, I highly doubt any of the aboe will happen.
If I had to compromise then my suggestions would be that all firearms sales (within all USA sovereign territory) would be prohibited without a valid permit.
Permits must be renewed annually.
The following conditions must be met before a permit can be issued.
All checks and assessments would be carried out by relevant State or Federal agencies.
All administrative costs would be paid by the Firearm Permit Applicant
Official proof of ID, address and all other permanent members of the household
Full written criminal checks on all household member with 'markers' being placed against anyone with history of violence.
Full written medical records on all household memeber with 'marker' being placed against anyone with a forensic history, current diagnosis or suspected diagnosis of an an enduring mental health illness.
If members of the household fall within the criteria of parts 1&2 then a permit will only be issued to the applicant once a home visit has been made by Federal Authorities to assess against a Risk Matrix System. If the household fails to pass the matrix then a firearms permit will not be issued to anyone who lives in that property.
The applicant must pay a Federal approved agency to install and maintain a secure storage area for all firearms and ammunition. A valid yearly inspection certificate must be supplied for renewal of a permit
There are already background checks and waiting periods and every gun sold requires a permit with fingerprints. A new handgun purchasing permit is required for each handgun sold and they expire in 60 days. Trigger locks and/or gun safes are also mandatory. And many states do not allow carrying a concealed weapon without an additional permit.
There cannot be a federal law on this. States have the jurisdiction. That's because what might be right for a state like New Jersey with the highest population density in the country, might not be right for Wyoming, where ranchers may need guns as an essential tool of their jobs. In addition, some cities have additional laws on top of state laws.
You cannot punish an individual for being related to or married to a criminal. Next thing you know you cannot have a gun if you live next door to an Arab.
We need another Federal agency like we need a hole in the head. More bureaucracy is not going to help and having home visits to applicants is way too costly.
We do not need new laws, just to enforce the ones we already have. The only thing I think we need that you did not touch on is that there should be some education. You need to pass a written and driving test to get an automobile license but an 18 year old can get a gun with no training at all.
I haven't been following this thread but I'd like to know why a guy who was diagnosed as mentally ill was able to purchase guns.
He didn't. They belonged to his parents.
Cozumel is proposing that if you have a mentally ill child then you cannot own a gun yourself.
I dont think thats exactly what he had in mind. I see his point in running checks on family members though. If my wife was a psycho with a history of viiolence, I could understand it if my neighbours preferred that I didn't collect automatic weapons.
Separate names with a comma.