Another Shooting...Another Death: At CNN Headquarters

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Dyre Straits, Apr 3, 2007.

  1. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Yes I know its an exception to the rule ;) But the goverment wanted this and well, we had to sacrifice a few freedoms (that you don't seem willing to give up) to have a safe and healthy enviroment. I love it though! And I know the US is dangerous, I don't feel safe and I can understand your gun love.

    As for the US population coming here, good luck, the swiss in general sorta dislike the US very strongly :rofl: You guys got a very bad rep around here!

    I thought you made a statment? And seems correct to me... Poverty is about economy and economy leads to crime and viscious circle no? Or did I not understand your statment correctly?
     
  2. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Yet you have used you country as an example of how gun controls work.... :wtf: now your talking in circles. pfff.

    So then - why do you say the US need controls.???

    You don't think crooks will still have guns? - or use other weapons to kill people?
    That to me is obvious short-sightedness.
     
  3. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Dude when it comes to just the ghettos, it's different! That doesn't mean the gun related info is all wrong... A country that has ghettos doesn't justify guns (perfect example, France).

    You really don't read my posts? First of all, the gun vs other weapons... Guns are easier to use and have more devestating effects than say a knife or a rock.

    Secondly, if the US had TOUGHER STRICTER HARSHER STRINGENT gun control like CH for example, then maybe those crooks wouldn't have guns in the first place and the problem would be resolved no?

    But why attack the head of the snake when the body is more fun, right? :rolleyes:
     
  4. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Russia developed? Oh please... Why not use England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy as more comparable countries? They are closer in economic amd demographic values than Russia. But I know why you don't use them, because their gun controls work and would be opposite of what you want to say!!! :eek:
     
  5. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    MAYBE is NOT good enough -

    Drugs are illegal and they still exist (not that hard to get either - even durring the 'war on drugs'. So how can I expect a crook would NOT have a gun then?

    ARE WAY smaller demographically AND in popultations
    They all still have murders and 'horrific' events like the topic artical too...

    Yes - RUSSIA IS/WAS a developed country (until all their controls and rules of socialism and communism made them the country they are today) that is CLOSEST to the size of the US in geographical AND population terms. They ARE the perfect example of what I wish to avoid.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2007
  6. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Well then that's America's problem... Glad I'm not stuck with such a dilemma :lol:

    Demographic and population is the same. :uhoh:

    Dude, Russia is a developpign country cept for Moscow and all... France Germany and all are all FIRST world countries like the US and you thus compare on that fact, not the population since you always bring it down to percentage (for comparing). Thus, Russia is FAR from being even a good example :rolleyes:

    Anyways, this is dumb, you just focus on the small impossible variables and don't take into account the probility of anything. For you, if something has a tiniest chance of happening, you need to blow it into perspective to argue against something that has a lot of probility of occurence.
     
  7. cozumel

    cozumel I'm dangerous but cute...

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    Dude, your argument is so flawed. Russia is a poor nation that lacks the basic infastructure of North America, Japan, Australia, New Zealand and most of the EU. There is no real democracy. The police, justice systems and military are often corrupt or just lack the infastructure, procedures and protocols with which to carry out their respective jobs. If you include Russia then you might as well include South Africa or even Afghanstan to argue your point which would be equally preposterous.

    You have still failed to reply to my question:
    Why is the rate of gun deaths (13.47% per 100,000 of population) in the US double that of the next worst country in this table (previously linked by Sandok)? The only reason that I can think of is the 2nd amendment. The price of the second amendement appears to be a very heavy one. Is the cost worth it? Are lives so cheap?
     
    Sandok likes this.
  8. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    No - demographic is things like religion, economic class, etc - population is the ##### number of people.
    And dont give me this 'fine line' rediculous argument - they are different, this case completely different.

    Russia IS THE PERFECT example of how 'controls' and excessive regulations are no good for a country. Besides - What do you mean Russia is 'developing':uhoh:
    1) have you seen 'rural' America... then the US is a 'developing' country as well.
    2) How many 'developing' countries have *had* a working space program :eek:

    No its not 'tiny' - tooo much evidence shows gun controls are *not* effective.

    You are right - they are poor and have more murders than the US. My position all along. But it wasn't always this way. Their regulations caused corruption, which caused the myrid of problems they suffer today.

    Im not gonna comment about 'gun deaths' - murders are NOT only by guns.
    So - lets talk about murders per capita. Otherwise Im ignoring it.
    Russia clearly has more than the US. period.
    And I already did before besides - and you fail to answer my Q too..

    when did S.Africa have a space program? AND is it all one country?
    note: the example of a 'space program' illustrates 'disposable' assets - an indicator of 'rich/developed' nations.

    AND you are linking to a ANTI GUN web site too... do you know what 'biased' means? - I all ready commented on that as well.

    Meee tooo.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2007
  9. cozumel

    cozumel I'm dangerous but cute...

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    Because it's evidence that causes significant damage to your entire argument perhaps and therefore makes you unable to debate any further?

    Fair enough then - let's shake 'virtual' hands and agree to disagree - although I think I may have got a TKO!!! :D I raise a 'virtual' glass, drink to your good health and wish you a happy Easter.
     
  10. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    No thats not it - I edited my post.... and....
    No grudges here either - its good to debate.

    Cheers *virtual beer raised in toast* - in my own victory.
     
  11. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Populations IS part of demographic... :bleh:


    Perfect example? Are you even reading your posts before you press the posty button? It HAD a space development program but apart form the major cities, Russia is as poor as Ukraine or some other eastern european country... It HAD a glorious past, that doesn't mean that's the case anymore :hmm:

    And boy are you stuck up on Russia... Just what about France, Germany and Spain that all have severe gun control and OMG less murders than USA (not even counting gun crime that is nonexistant)! :duh: Care to comment or will you ignore this for the billionth time?

    Ya, please post either links or facts to justify a statement. From what I've seen on the net and books and all, there is too much evidence to show that gun control works. Hell this thread has enough proof! Again, APART from your beloved Russia, all countries I've stated have lower gun crime and murder per capita than the US. Care to comment?

    Yes they do but Coz specifically wanted you to comment on the ones who had less... Yet again, you fail to argue that point so to me, you're sorta just rambling the same stuff over and over... We got those points, we've given you links and showed you proof of everything we've said. Do the same for us now and answer our questions? :sigh:
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2007
  12. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    So DENSITY (demographic) and COUNT (population) are the same now too??? :bleh: I even linked to their definitions for your ease of reference.

    Yes - so what changed there ?
    AND - 1st you say they are 'developing' - *now* you say they had a glorious past - soo which is it??? :uhoh:

    I have ALREADY addressed this multiple times.

    I have already multiple times -AND you admitted to NOT READING. Why would I bother typing it again - use the thread navigations.

    I have already mutiple times - If you refuse yo even try to read/comprehend - well - what can I do about it?
    - I wont bow out, if thats your strategy???

    Yeah links to biased ANTI-GUN web sites - (Do you know what biased means?) But ignore my UNBIASED sites I linked to...

    If you fail to see that; I don't want what happened in Russia to happen here - I guess - you just being argumentative for the sake of argument. I cant make this any clearer....
     
  13. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

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    Sandok, why do you keep avoiding my example?

    Greece has free (not as much as the USA but still) gun controls, compareable size and population to Switzerland and still less murders per capita than Switzerland. How is the less than strict gun controls here do not force the murder rate to scy rocket? Also Greece has a large (for its size) number of immigrants (like USA) perhaps even close to 8-10%.

    Stop ignoring whatever doesn't suit you.
     
  14. Dyre Straits

    Dyre Straits 10 Grandkids -2 Great-grandsons

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    Since I'm the author/originator of this thread (originally posted in Off Topics, no less) I have been keeping up with the heated debate going on here. I normally don't venture into this area of our forums but, due to a new article in the Atlanta Journal/Constitution that I read just a little over an hour ago, I felt compelled to weigh in and add some more for people to 'chew on' in this debate.

    Several people have argued that guns make it easier to kill a person and, without access to guns, there would 'assumedly' be less killing as it would cause people to think longer about what they're about to do.

    I really can't accept that argument at all. It seems to me that once a person decides that they want another person dead, it's only a matter of time before they act on that decision. They've already crossed a threshold and, in most cases at least, there's no turning back.

    Read this article from today's AJC:

    [​IMG]

    In this article we have very similar circumstances where a man wants "his woman" dead. The original post I made resulted in a man taking a gun and shooting "his woman" in broad daylight in a very public place. This current article shows that the man used a knife to kill "his woman" also in a very public place.

    As an American citizen, I personally don't want anyone messing with my inherited right to own a gun. I'm not saying whether I own one or not. BUT, I have the right to own one LEGALLY as a citizen of the USA. I don't want that right voided or amended or otherwise removed from our rights as citizens.

    What I DO want to see is better enforcement of keeping guns of any kind out of the hands of those who are NOT LEGALLY within their rights to own or possess one.

    BUT, as this latest article shows, even those who either cannot get one, or have no access to one, WILL USE WHATEVER MEANS IS AVAILABLE to do harm or kill someone they want to be dead.

    Now, my question: If someone you know decided they wanted you dead, how would you prefer they go about it? Keep in mind, there's a very strong likelihood you WILL be killed if someone makes up their mind to kill you. (Especially, if you choose to NOT own a weapon.)

    Would you want them to beat you to death with a baseball bat?

    Stab you to death with a knife?

    Poison you with Anti-freeze (or some other poison)?

    Shoot you through the head with a gun?


    For my own sake, if someone wants me dead, I'm not a fan of pain and suffering. I'd want them to get it over with quickly. And, if they don't kill themselves afterwards, I want THEM to suffer the full force of the law for their action.

    Right here in our area, there's a town by the name of Kennesaw. In this town it's actually a law that every head of the household owns a gun. Now, this law is NOT enforced. BUT, being that the surrounding community is aware of this law, one of the things that make this town unique is that there's a VERY LOW murder rate in this town as compared to the nearby cities and communities. No one can say for sure that this law is the reason for the low rate of murders. But, the law enforcement officers do point to this law as being one of the many reasons why criminals are reluctant to commit such violent acts within the city.

    Maybe, just maybe, if that person who wants you dead had any fear that you might kill him/her first, they just might cool off instead of acting on it.

    After all, these two women were entirely defenseless in both cases when they were killed. Would the outcome have been different if they'd be able to defend themselves? It's too late to know for sure.

    However, I'd really like to have a fighting chance if someone wanted me dead.

    OK. On with the show!
     
  15. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Definition of demographic: [SIZE=-1]referring to numerical characteristics of a population (eg population size, age structure) The density, age group, size and ALL is in the demographic notion... :duh:[/SIZE]

    My god man I can't believe you're even asking this... What changed there? A whole nation crumbled under the mafia, curruption and uprest of the bluecollar worker. As Developping as CONTRARY to developed. Before they had a glorious past (eg: DEVELOPED).

    Okay I've gone through the thread and fail to see it... Care to do it again? :hmm:

    :rofl: Unbiased? OH please... And apart from that, I post the links regularly so I don't have to hunt them down everytime, common curtsey.

    This is the whole problem with you... You say RUssia the perfect example and fear that you'll become like it, yet it was communist, the US never was, it had major curruption, the US never has, it is a ONE out of 230+ countries, yet you fear for the most IMPROBABLE example. That's what I meant by blowing out of proportion...

    As a comparable argument to your method of debating. In America, kids got guns at school and shot students! Hey, it happened very rarily but so what, because of this said "one example", I want all schools to have metal detectors! YOu reason like that and there really is no point in posting, I can't care less... You don't wanna repeat yourself, you don't wanna proove anything unless it's biased and outta your mouth and you don't wanna believe a single shred of evidence I've posted. This is called a one sided argument where I'm talking and it's falling on deaf ears..
     
  16. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Okay mate, here you go... Switzerland is ranked 56 and Greece is 58... WOW what a HUGE difference :wtf: Two places stasticly!!! :wtf:

    I'm not ignoring your statments, I just don't see how general murders per capita have ANYTHING to do with gun crime? :uhoh: I mean, seriously, please fill me up... Gun control, gun murders I see a link... Gun control, murders, I fail to see that link... :bleh:

    And we have tons of immigrants too, above 30% so I'd rate our "slightly" higher murders per capita to that. So please, why don't you look at all the facts?
     
  17. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

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    Are you joking? You fail to see what murders have to do with gun crime?

    The important thing, even for 2 places, is that Greece (doesn't matter if it is Greece or country X) that does not have strict gun controls has lower murders than one that has. You know the whole argunment you are making about USA and guns in relation to UK, France, Germany, Switzerland?
     
  18. Calinerti

    Calinerti New Member

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    About 7 in 10 homicides are attributable to firearms. If anyone makes up their mind to kill you, Dyre, your odds are good you'll get what you want. And you're right, it would be much better to be shot through the head than to have a large angry man keep punching you in the chest until you died. (Only a 6% chance of getting beaten to death with hands, feet etc.)

    Homicides aren't the leading cause from death from firearms. Suicide is. I dont know that I agree that "there's a very strong likelihood you WILL be killed if someone makes up their mind to kill you." But certainly if someone is determined to commit suicide, they will try. And since guns are readily available, and a custom built tool for the job, naturally they become the obvious choice.
     
  19. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    How does a population having guns lower murders or a population not having guns raise murders? You make a link but techincally, it's all a theory that has absolutely no backing.

    And Switzerland has a 30% immigrant population, much higher than Greece so I most likely think a lot of problems are linked to that. But fine, Greece is better than Switzerland which is better than the US.

    However, something none of you are answering is why countries with almost no guns (eg: France, Germany, Spain, Japan etc) have lower crime? Doesn't that just sorta mess up what you just said? These countries with stricter rules than Switzerland and such have less gun crime, less murders and less suicides? Coincidence? I think not... :rolleyes:
     
  20. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

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    The point SAndok, that several otherpeople try to make here is that guns are NOT responsible. It's the economy and the people, not the guns that kill people. It is not that guns are easily available in the USA that is the problem, as it isn't the prohibition of guns in other countries. In fact it is almost irrelevant, understood?
     

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