Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Necrosis, Feb 13, 2005.
Lol... Irony 101 for Americans.... http://www.mellowfellow.com/ironic.shtml
Europe is cowardice because they can do nothing to defend itself. It has a false sense of strenght when they crap on the USA.We had to save France and Russia from Germany in WWII. Without the US, there would be a Nazi regime alive and kicking in all three nations today.
Well like I said, just keep the UK out of your ravings mate, we fought good and hard and no one ever invaded us. We fought for nearly 3 years before the US got involved too, while you guys 'debated' whether or not you should do anything. What have you got to say about cowardice anyway, when your country delayed entry into the war in the full knowledge that millions were dying in concentration camps and on the battlefield for so long, when it is clear that the only reason you entered the war is because you were attacked by Japan? If you guys hadn't been attacked, your policy of 'isolationism' would undoubtedly have continued - regardless of what that meant for the jews, or anyone else for that matter. You accuse the Europeans of appeasment, but regardless of this we still declared war and were prepared to fight it out a long time before you were. Indeed if it hadn't been for Pearl Harbour. it seems clear that you guys would have been happy to stand by pretty much indefinately and do nothing.
And how exactly did you 'save Russia'? There wasn't a single US soldier in Russia for the entire duration of the war. Indeed the Russians probably have the biggest tale of bravery to tell of any nation during that whole period. The Germans practically got to the gates of Moscow before the Red Army finally gathered enough strength and resources to push them all the way back - not just out of the USSR (since the USSR was much bigger than just Russia at that time) but all the way back into Germany itself. If you had any perception of how big the USSR was then (or even how big Russia is now) there is no possible way you could deny the sheer level of courage and determination that this took.
And France did do 'something to defend herself.' Contrary to many ignorant American's biased beliefs on this subject, France was regarded as one of the major superpowers at that time - and to this effect she had a correspondingly vast army. Unfortunately that army got defeated by a madman with an even more vast army - who also had access to what could possibly be regarded as superior equipment at that time. I mean, it's not as if your country has never suffered a defeat at the hands of an enemy now is it?
The United Kingdom is part of Europe, I think if you read your history books, if it wasnt for the UK things would have been out of hand by the time the USA intervened.
Please wake up...............
Yes ,sorry I like the UK. When we speak of Europe,that is too general. The UK has done amazing things over the years. I just can't stand Germany mainly,those people have a history of not standing up against evil and France,who can figure them out.
Erm... that's not quite what you said. But anyway...
I don't really see what you have against the Germans. All of that is history, but it's very old history. I think though that you were trying to infer that the Europeans were a bunch of pussies? Well as bad as they were, I doubt you could really say that about the Germans. They stormed over a large proprtion of the Earth's surface in their time - and more than that they did it twice. They may not have been so good at 'standing up to evil' (again you should try referring to your own country's record in this regard before criticizing others) but they were pretty damn good at dishing it out. The reason they don't have much of an army now is because for the longest time after the war we wouldn't allow them to - and more than that we made them adopt a pacifist constitution that forbids them from ever going to war again. We did this because on the last two instances they did have a major army, they pretty much cold bloodely slaughtered something in the region of 80 million people.
So perhaps not quite the 'pussy' image of them you had in mind.
And France... well the French just like to think of themselves as being independant. They don't like the idea of anyone telling them what to do - and they don't feel that they should just bend over every time someone asks them, regardless of whether it is the US doing the asking or not. Sometimes it it undoubtely seems to harm them more than it helps, but they really are a fiercly independant people - and that I'm afraid you will never change.
Anyway, you need to get with the program. Didn't you see Donald Rumsfield in his recent vist to Europe? He pretty much went there cap in hand to ask for their help, because suprise, suprise your govenment has learned that it is impossible to fight a war and the entire world on their own. It seems he finally figured out that if you want to fight an international war on terror, you are going to need international friends. So now he has officially anounced that it's 'OK to like Europeans again.' and that this particularly includes the French. He appologized for his comments regarding 'Old Europe,' and declared that he had learned his lesson and regretted his comments and that this had been the "Old Rumsfield" speaking.
So I guess since it was your government who told you to dislike the Europeans - and especially the French originally, now that they are telling you it's OK to like them again, then everything will be fine from now on? Not that I'm saying in any sense that you clearly lack any ability to think independantly on such matters....
But then again...
arknova,you nothing about europe by the way you rant on,usa only entered at last min.only because japan bombed peral habour,thats the only reason it entered,it stayed out of it.excuse ,after excuse.every country in europe fought hard in ww1 and ww2.only in last 20 years ,have scars healed.europe would go with clinton if he was in office,because he would have other avenues first and then war.bush on other hand jumps in ,the rest is history.
It was certainly big enough to do the job. But the point is it was undoubtedly better equipped. What exactly have numbers got to do with this anyway? Your own statement almost infers that this isn't significant. And surely it can't be all that significant, since as I said, your own country was defeated in recent times by an Army that was much smaller and much more poorly equiped than your own. So what exactly do these numbers prove?
And yes, the US did sell us Arms and equipment under the 'lend lease scheme.' But note the term 'sell' here. It wasn't charity, we weren't given all this stuff. In the end we had to pay - and we had to pay so much indeed that it was only under Tony Blair that we finally managed to pay off the national debt that we built up during the war - mainly due to having to buy our stuff from you guys. So we we have been pretty much paying for the help you gave us then for 60 best part of years. It seems then, just as now, that War was very much viewd by the US as little more than yet another business deal. So long as you were making a buck, you seemed more than happy enough to not get involved.
It's not so nice when the spotlight shines on you, is it?
World War 2 was a business adventure. I guess 500,000 deaths could be taken as an industrial accident.
But the fact of the matter is if Europe had stood up to the guy with a bad mustach 51 million people probably wouldn't have lost there lives.
What spolight. We didn't win in Vietnam because its hard to win a war when its run by the politcians. Its like putting Tyson in the ring with a light heavyweight and telling him he has fight with only one arm and can't punch to the head. He may win if he gets a good shot in but more than likly he'll lose. All our military would have to do is play WWII type warefare and not many nations could stand up to the pressure for long.
The 'fact remains' my friend that Europe did step up to the plate a long time before you guys did. Sounds very much like a case of the pot calling the kettle black to me.
And in case it's escaped your notice, ultimately all wars are run by politicians. The fact that the Vietnam war was lost due to political inaction - of whatever reason you want to pin on it - does nothing to mitigate the fact that you did loose it - and to an an enemy that was both inferior in numbers and in terms of the quaility of it's equipment too.
Not that I'm saying there is any dishonour in defeat. Hey, shit happens - and it happens to the best of us sometimes too. It is you who is infering that defeat somehow automatically infers dishonour and cowardice. Like I said, try judging yourself in your own mirror before you judge others. Your own history is really not quite as glorious as you appear to think.
Well as to point 1, what history book are you getting the facts from here? hopefully not the same book or people that rewrote history with hollywood movies like "pearl harbour" !
I really find it hard to debate these issues when the points presented are so insanely incorrect and i hate to say it, but you really do need to start reading a little more up on the history of world war II. This whole bunching of "europe" into one faction is silly. germany and the united kingdom are a part of europe and they were two of the countries fighting AGAINST each other in the war. It really irks me to read posts from americans who just claim the war was won by them without any regard for the people who fought IN EUROPE, died and had families lost trying to end the tyranical regime of hitler. The USA helped to win it, in the end yes. So what? does everyone owe you guys for coming into the battle and helping the UK and other countries stop the madness? Everyone needs to stop posting "europe" as everything outside the USA, its ridiculous and quite irritating. What about the last "war" against saddam? do the UK (a part of europe) owe the states anything for the friendly deaths? have you actually seen the statistics of the deaths caused by the USA to UK friendly troops or is that not important?
The fact that vietnam war wasnt won due to politicians is also quite a weird comment, do you not think it wasnt won because the vietnamese knew the territory inside and out and also were willing to commit suicide to take as many "enemies" with them? you cannot win those wars and that was something that was massively overlooked when the whole thing kicked off, the people that lived there and fought against the americans just didnt care about dying, it was their land and they would do anything to keep it. Ive lived with it here in ireland all my life so I kind of know how it works.
"I really find it hard to debate these issues when the points presented are so insanely incorrect and i hate to say it, but you really do need to start reading a little more up on the history of world war II. This whole bunching of "europe" into one faction is silly. germany and the united kingdom are a part of europe and they were two of the countries fighting AGAINST each other in the war. It really irks me to read posts from americans who just claim the war was won by them without any regard for the people who fought IN EUROPE, died and had families lost trying to end the tyranical regime of hitler. The USA helped to win it, in the end yes. So what? does everyone owe you guys for coming into the battle and helping the UK and other countries stop the madness? Everyone needs to stop posting "europe" as everything outside the USA, its ridiculous and quite irritating. What about the last "war" against saddam? do the UK (a part of europe) owe the states anything for the friendly deaths? have you actually seen the statistics of the deaths caused by the USA to UK friendly troops or is that not important?"
i am an american & i agree with this 100% people making these comments have no knowledge of geography, politics, & ww2 as a whole.
unforunatly ethnocentrism (& hiding your head in the sand) seems to still be rampant in this world. having pride in your country is a great thing. making uninformed comments about other countries(let alone your own) is an underlying cause of a lot of problems the world faces. (i am reffering to overall mental attitudes)
and zardon, anybody that does not know the role the uk played in ww2 & since & is making comments about it should, to put it mildly, be ignored. I think they are a very, very, small minority.
L AGREE WITH ZARDON,but lm sure other usa will not.l also live in ireland .had civil war for decades and more.these wars are hard to win,yet alone survive in.people on both sides of it,mostly the north side.seems that people here say what they consider true,but is not fact.the few will mutter on in this thread what l consider bull and alot of it.if you know your world history,this thread would have ended by.but as it has not and probly will not ,tell alot.
most people i know are fairly well informed. this is one of the problems with these types of forums. you tend to get specific 'types' of people & a very narrow base from which to 'judge'. which is why i would never base my opinion on another countries people based on what i read in this or any number of forums.
this post is not in reference to you specifically kelticknight but an overall opinion of mine.
most of what l have seen on this post is off base,mostly about europe and also states.l do judge this post on what l have seen here, mike2h.its not very hard to see why,from start to finish.mostly picking on one another.but not fact.as a european ,lm dispointed,but not surprised
i agree with what you say about this thread, & probably could apply it to a large amount of this particular forum. i am just saying that what goes on in here in no way represents a view of any particular culture or country. far from it.
You know,I'm tired of people saying that it was only history. The Germans don't want to take responsibilty in the nazi regime. They want to sweep it under the rug. Just like it was said earlier,in school in Germany it is hard to find the history of Germany from the era of WWI and WWII. I never hear or see the Germans want to make it right with the world in what they did to the Jews. For God's sake,Reagan(yes Reagan,I know many aren't going to give him credit) had to aid them to take the Berlin wall down. The Germans need to make up for the cruelty they caused. It wasn't only Hilter that was evil in that country,some people helped him.
Then I'll ask you for how long Germany should pay for what happened back in the 30-40's. There are not many left who were adults when this happened, and later generations can't be blamed for something that happened before they were born.
Maybe we should blame you for what your ancestors did when they nearly wiped the native inhabitants out in America?
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