Free Acoustic DrumKit VSTi (for kX users only)

Discussion in 'Effects and the DSP' started by Lex Nahumury, Mar 25, 2006.

  1. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    Pic:
    http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/drumkit.png

    Demo song:
    http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/What's%20Next(by%20Lex%20Nahumury).mp3

    Pros:
    - 128 voice polyphonic
    - fast engine
    - uses very little CPU
    - 'buid in' stereo ambient sample set
    - easy to use
    - ...it's FREE!

    Cons:
    - 'One trick pony'
    - only 1 stereo out
    - no custom gui

    Notes:
    Works at fixed 48kHz samplerate.
    Checks if kX driver is installed.

    Hosts tested:
    - Cubase SX 1.68
    - VSTHost
    - Chainer

    Installation:
    Just unzip both files into your VSTplugin directory.
    (Both files must be in the same directory!)

    Download here:
    http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/vst_plugins.htm


    /Lex
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2006
  2. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    I listened to th mp3 demo - Very cool Lex...
    And, I just D/L this (didnt install yet) and was wondering...

    Whats 'One Trick Pony' ??

    Can I assume its not multi-timbral (or only one instance allowed)??
    Or does it mean - only 1 drum kit available?.

    which brings my next question - is it possible for a user to make a custom kit?
     
  3. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    very nice sounding imo
    i use a lot of synthesized drums in my tracks, so i might use this for a few of the sounds in my current track

    although i know it's only a single stereo out, would you consider adding more outputs in the future? (if the demand is there of course)
     
  4. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    Yes, It means 1 drum kit available.
    You mean, by providing your own sample set?
    If so Yes, but not in the current format.
    Yes, if the demand is there I'll probably do that.
    Perhaps 2 to 4 stereo outs so user can group certain drumpads.
    (Leave kick dry and process snare, cymbals whatever, stuff like that)
     
  5. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Yes I meant adding own samples.


    I notice the sample are in a dat file... are you looking to change this - or ??

    ehm... consider it demanded... hehe

    I agree with DJ-STICK - Yes - it sounds very good.
     
  6. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Lex:

    I like the low cpu deal.

    Can you expound on maddogg6's question about using own kits. What do you mean about "...not in current format?" Can we load our own .wav drum sounds or what?

    I haven't tried it yet either. Gonna install it now.
     
  7. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Hey, I was checking it out. Not bad snare hits and crash symbols and open close hi hat sounds for a 13 MB sized kit!:) Only 2% cpu load, until I inserted Slicy Drummer into the FX Bin then cpu load went to 9-11%, and it didnt go back down to 2% even when I deleted Slicy from the FX Bin. I'm not saying this is the VSTi's fault.:)

    I take it you're gonna make this to be able to load kits in some popular format?

    Also would be nice if we could assign the drum sounds to what key we want them (includubg same snare hit on any two keys, for example). Without some kind of features like this, I can't see much reason for using this VSTi over soundfonts loaded into kX Synths. Am I missing something?

    Lex: I'm sure you'll set me straight about something. LOL Hey, you should have known you would get newbee and possibly idiot questions for something newly presented. But, I hope this in no way discourages you from continuing development of this VSTi.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2006
  8. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    2-4 stereo outputs sounds good… what about the option of "panning" each drum left/right (making each drum sound going through a single mono channel only, or giving stereo
    imaging)

    just floating another idea (one i use when i build my 909 kit with logic's ESX24)
     
  9. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    I'm thinking even if its not in a GUI - and use only Midi CC to adjust such things like pan - output send level per key/hit/note - would be oky dokey with me.

    Actually - to have no GUI and only midi CC to adjust stuff would be good for me - maybe others would disagree..??

    To expand:

    Kick Drum Out setect: - CC 1 (0-32 = out 1, 33-64 = out 2, 65-96 = Out 3, 97-127 = out 4)
    Kich Drum Level Level: CC 2
    Kick Drum Pan: CC 3
    Kick velocity to Filter : CC4 (ok, so I'm dreaming here...)
    Snare Out select: CC 5
    etc...
    Filter Resonance: CC 110 (to contiinue to dream)

    NOT A DEMAND - simply just an idea or two....
    I'll use it as is anyway...

    @:Thomas:
    I read a post where Lex mentioned getting better latency with a VSTi than the KX Synth - I personally dont see any difference here - but others may ?? then again, I didnt do any real heavy testing with it yet either.. I suspect it was his motivation (or partly) for making this.
     
  10. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    kX Synth is useless for drum playback (or anything else requering instant attack for that matter).
    I can't believe hardly anyone notice such things.
    (same as with the much better 3534f ASIO performance)
    These are not subjective things.
    They are as objective as 1+1=2!

    Anyway, I'll answer the rest of the Qs later, its bed time here.
     
  11. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Well, I never noticed that kX Synth isn't all that good for instruments requiring fast attack. Anyway, I use DR-008 for my drums or a soundfont DXi/VSTi or a sampler.

    But I just checked this VSTi and then kX synth using the Creative supplied CT8MGM.SF2.

    Your VSTi instrument sounds more punchier and better, no doubt. But that's some thing I would have reckoned was due to the sample size of the individual sounds. Anyway, how many times have I illuded to, or implied that we're lucky to have you in the kX community, Lex??!!! So, yes what you point out here is reason enough to use this new VSTi of yours.

    Still, what about more features (loading at least .wav kits). Remember, we all are not all Cubase SX users. OK what I mean is that I use DXi instruments, but I admit that some VSTi work better than their DXi version. This was the case for DR-008 until like the two most recent versions.

    And, hey don't get upset with me!?:) JK

    Furthermore, I never used 3534f til you brought it up in light of the version's ASIO performance. I read here since 2002, but really just stuck with using kX since maybe 2004 or late 2003. :p

    Anyway, I say pass at least some of your knowledge on to people, mainly those you feel will retain it and help others to be better at the many facets involved in the music production industry. That is, if you think it will serve some worthy cause to do so. Like I said before, this is a hobby for me, but I always wanted to make it in the music production business being a all in one band, but that's still a dream. I'm sure, though, you get my point.

    Sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite.

    Lastly, remember, I will lose my Internet connection soon. I applied for a job, and so far, the application process seems to be going well. It's a job in the criminal justice field, so it's a long process. I'm at the stage, now where I'm waiting to see if I'll be called for a interview ( got a letter today in the mail that I passed the written and psycological exam. Next is the interview part, then the job if I get called. Anyway, I'm in a good position on the eligibility list ( a score of 89 out of 100). So if the job comes through, I'll be back on line about 2 to 3 months after that (if not sooner). If you don't see me post for a good while, you will know why.

    Sorry for the long carrying on post.

    Thomas
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2006
  12. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    I guess I never really listened that carefully before... While I don't think Thomas' test was an 'accurate' one. (Lex's samples are higher Q to begin with, their bigger in size, so they *should* be) I DID go a step further and created a SF2 from recording Lex's VSTi @16/48 - and then mapping the these sounds in a SF2 (no velocity splits - just recorded at 127 velocity, set hi-hats to 'executive class', set release rates, set attack to lowest/fastest etc..)

    Now, keep in mind I *have* read before (now that its montioned) that you need to add a couple samples in front of each sample wave, to compensate for a 'lagging attack'.
    I also DO notice many SF2's I have (some from EMU) with an additional 1-5 0db samples in the beginning of the instrument sample. I figured this was a driver bug (I think I read this way... back while I was using APSLive) - anyway - I also added 2-3 samples in front of each instrument sample wave (anymore would increase my appearant latency)

    I then (in sonar) took a Slicey pattern - played 4 bars with the VSTi, and 4 with the SF2 I made. And recorded them both. It wasn't a *huge* difference.

    The hi-hats have a little extra 'ting' to its attack - as well as the Snare has a subtle nuence missing in the SF2. - I would have never noticed without A/B comparing the way I did. The best test, of course, would be using the source samples for an SF2, but ...

    I too, will confirm Lex's claim.

    Latency wise - I still see KX synth as faster than all the other VSTi's (IE SFz that I believe comes with Sonar) I have. EXCEPT this VSTi however, seems to be ecaxtly as fast as KX synth. (I did another test of a single instrument and compared to each other, and looked like a average of 1-2 samples shifted - which accounts for the added samples points in the instrument sample waves in the SF2 used)
    While I did hear volume differences between using SFz and KX synth previously, Listening a little closer - it seems KX Synth has a bit lower freq response. ?? Its hard for me to be certain.

    Now Im not gonna go too crazy and *never* use KX Synths - but it IS definitly something thats good to know.

    I suspect (because this VSTi is 'KX users Only') that this VSTi is *HW accelerated* somehow... and if this is the case - Lex my good man, you are onto something very, very nice.

    Bravo Lex - Bravo.
     
  13. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    there was one timing issue i noticed when i first loaded the VSTi into logic

    i played one bar of kicks in a loop, each kick on the beat, and it sounded every 4 beats that the 4th would "lag" by a noticeable amount
    however it fixed itself somehow when i bounced it down to audio, and continued to play that same bar in loop…
     
  14. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Nice Lex,
    I was hoping you were going to do something like this, back when you made your other synth's.

    :)
     
  15. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    Ok, I see some clarification is needed.
    Since I do a lot of VST(i) coding, the 'advantages'
    of writing 'kX only' VST plugins is that one does not have
    to support different sample rates and different platforms.
    It's always 48kHz, MS Windows.
    So I decided to release a little 'kX only' VSTi and investigate user response.


    Concerning this VSTi;
    This is a stripped down version of a private drum VSTi I wrote and use,
    which has most of the feature requests made here implemented.
    (see pros & cons in first post)

    I really don't know why anyone else would need this VSTi.
    I can only tell why *I* would need it;

    - Anyone who has ever tried to lay down a realistic
    sounding (midi)drumtrack knows that besides decent
    sounding samples, you need to think and play like
    a real drummer would.
    Expressive articulations like flams, rolls, ghost notes
    etc. are a 'must have'.
    Ever tried to do a realistic snare, tom or cymbal roll on the SF Synth??
    It sounds crap.
    Why, because it hasn't the speed nor the polyphony to do this.
    A realistic roll must not cut off previous notes,
    but must 'stack' all playing/decaying notes.
    Any idea how much voices that takes?
    A lot!
    Sure I could use drum roll samples,
    but I don't want to hear the same roll over and over again
    and they seldom match the right tempo, lenght etc.
    Besides, I use drumpads and even on keyboard I like
    to play the rolls myself.

    So in this respect the hw synth lacks polyphony and
    (re)trigger speed. Add to that the 'attack issue'
    and the 32mb sample limit,.. enough reasons for *me*
    to look for an alternative.

    - With the exeption of a few (commercial) VSTis
    most of them can't handle the large polyphony either
    or use up way to much CPU per voice for my taste.
    And,.. those few good ones mostly aren't free!

    - Not to seldom I quickly need a decent drums,
    bass and chords to work out an idea or spontaniously jam with some friends.
    I don't know about you guys, but at those moments I don't want to
    look for samples, banks, templates, settings and such.
    I use my 'One trick ponies' instead.

    That's it as far as I'm concerned.

    Not to 'kill' any form of discussion but keep in mind that I
    only write stuff that is usefull to myself.
    Like minded users may profit from that while others don't.

    /Lex.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2006
  16. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    Yes, that was to be expected (although I had hoped not)
    It's common knowledge (in VST coder's land) that Logic has a 'weird' VSTi implementation.
    I probably can fix it but it takes quite some extra work and additional code.

    /Lex.
     
  17. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    Yes, I know what you mean. I have one drum VSti that uses a large mono sample bank
    to select instruments from and route/pan it everywhere.
    But, this won't work with stereo ambient samples!
     
  18. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    i'll keep testing it when i have the time, let me know if there's anything specific you wish me to test
     
  19. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    Ok. On forehand; Good luck with your job application!
    Hope to see you back soon,
    /Lex.
     
  20. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

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    The sf 'attack issue' has been improved since 3538.
    (I know since I was involved in that development).
    Nevertheless, the first ~2 to ~6ms of the sampledata always gets an 'attack' ramp,
    resulting in loss of definition on instruments that produce its characteristics in the attack phase.
    (adding 2~3 NULL samples won't fix this)

    But don't take my word for it.
    You can verify this by using a square wave sample,
    make a single SF instrument from it in Vienna,
    set to instant attack,
    load into kx synth,
    playback midi, record synth to audio track,
    enlarge waveform display,
    look at waveform note_on start point,

    ...tada,... ramp!
     

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