Futuremark Respond to Driverheavens Geforce 6800 IQ issues.

Discussion in 'Industry News' started by Stuart_Davidson, May 3, 2004.

  1. Stuart_Davidson

    Stuart_Davidson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2002
    Messages:
    5,843
    Likes Received:
    188
    Trophy Points:
    73
    A week ago we raised some concerns over the quality of images produced by the Geforce 6800 Ultra in 3Dmark03. We forwarded a note of our concerns to Futuremark and Nvidia, Futuremark have today provided us with a response.

    Before we look at that response, it may be useful to read the original article which is located here: http://www.driverheaven.net/articles/driverIQ/

    The short version of our concerns is that the 6800 Ultra was rendering an image that differed considerably from the images produced by 3dmark reference image. We were concerned that these changes were the result of optimisations which may not provide comparable results from the 6800 Ultra.

    Here is the response Futuremark have provided:

    “ We have studied carefully this issue and contacted NVIDIA and Microsoft regarding this. We re-tested the drivers and the result is the same as before: There are no 3DMark03 specific optimizations in Forceware 60.72 drivers for GeForce 6800 and they indeed fulfill 3DMark03 optimization guidelines with GeForce 6800.
    The explanation for the rendering differences is GeForce 6800's new isotropic filtering algorithm: It differs from that of the reference rasterizer. There is an analysis of this available at Digit Life (http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/gffx/nv40-part1-d.html). Based on all information we have, it seems that this algorithm is applied consistently the same way regardless of the application, i.e. it is not application specific and it is not targeting 3DMark specifically.
    We also contacted Microsoft about the difference between the rendering of the reference rasterizer and NV40: "The DX9 reference rasterizer does not produce an ideal result for level-of-detail computation for isotropic filtering, the algorithm used in NV40 produces a higher quality result. Remember, our API is constantly evolving as is graphics hardware, we will continue to improve all aspects of our API including the reference rasterizer."
    Now, the most interesting question is the performance effect. As regards 3DMark03, the performance effect due to this generic optimization is insignificant and should not cause incomparability of the results. “


    So what does it all mean?

    Firstly the news that the rendering differences do not impact performance is good and you can be confident that any 3Dmark03 scores you have seen posted in 6800 Ultra reviews are valid for comparison with cards which are available, or soon to be released.

    The other side to the statement is the comment that the filtering method Nvidia are using is not specifically targeting 3Dmark03. To better understand how this filtering method impacts image quality, here is a sample of a 3Dmark frame from game test 2. The image on top is the reference image, the image on the bottom is the Nvidia 6800 image. You will notice the change in image quality from one image to the other in the red circled areas.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    This is the type of IQ issue you are likely to see across all applications due to the NV40 rendering method. How significant or insignificant this is should be left up to each individual. You should also take into account the impact of these changes will vasy from game to game.

    Thanks for reading, and we hope that our original article and this follow up have better explained the rendering of the NV40.



    NOTE: I'd like to thank Tero Sarkkinen at Futuremark for the time and effort put into the investigations and response.
     
  2. Omegadrive

    Omegadrive Drivers? What Drivers???

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    1,526
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Is that what NV calls high quality? :rolleyes:
     
  3. zerodamage

    zerodamage New Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2003
    Messages:
    3,478
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If that is "Better IQ" then I do not want to see worse. Seriously, this looks hardware specific optimizations to improve performance.
     
  4. BiGBrOwNPimpsta

    BiGBrOwNPimpsta HH's #1 Hustla and Pimp

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,753
    Likes Received:
    62
    Trophy Points:
    58
    i have always noticed nvida has always tried to make everything speedy not looking great ever since geforce 2. i found my rage to display a better picture at the same settings lets say on CS, everything looked more rounded and smooth although it wasn't at 100 fps constantly. they can pull of some impressive shadows those cards, but image quality ever since rage i have seen a difference.
     
  5. ronnn

    ronnn New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2003
    Messages:
    617
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Since last thread got locked, let me say, that was one great article. Thanks. :) Now if these darn cards would become available - I could continue my quest for a quiet pc - with nice IQ.
     
  6. pr0digal jenius

    pr0digal jenius Delete Me

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    14,526
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    0

    But it's ok...b/c it does that for all games :rolleyes:
     
  7. jcvandamme

    jcvandamme New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thank you Veridian for your truly beautiful and complete article.

    We appreciate your efforts

    Thanks also to Zardon and Driverheaven's staff , you are the last braveheart of the net.
     
  8. SJae

    SJae Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Owned! Next time, you should investigate more carefully before writing down stuff you dont' know much about.
     
  9. Asmoday

    Asmoday Demonic

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Re: Re: Futuremark Respond to Driverheavens Geforce 6800 IQ issues.

    Why the attitude...:hmm: :hmm:
     
  10. jcvandamme

    jcvandamme New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sjae your eyes are painted of black or you are a Nvidia Shareholder ?

    I suppose the second... :)

    Ban him LOL
     
  11. SJae

    SJae Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2004
    Messages:
    69
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Re: Re: Futuremark Respond to Driverheavens Geforce 6800 IQ issues.

    The attitude b/c the way he wrote the original article was very unprofessional and inflammatory. Although the issue wasn't bought up here at Driverheaven, other forums clearly thought the article was too-soon, too-misinformed, ill-researched, and hasty (HardOCP, Rage3D, Anandtech, Beyond3D).

    I understand the writer's eagerness to expose any cheats but he should've done more research.

    BTW, to the one that accused me of being a nVIDIA fanboy...if I am a fanboy, why do I own a 9800Pro? I buy videocards based on what's best in terms of both performance and price. Your comment actually reflected the fanboyness/bias toward ATI.
     
  12. HardwareHeaven

    HardwareHeaven Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    32,274
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    88
    handbags away ladies, please :)
     
  13. germanjulian

    germanjulian Back in London

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,797
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    no specifc optimization BUT it renders differently... and we can see it looks a bit worse... but apperantly it doesnt affect performance. why not render it a bit better if it doesnt hit performance? me confused
     
  14. germanjulian

    germanjulian Back in London

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,797
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0

    ahhh it got this really nice guccie bag!!!
     
  15. RIV@NVX

    RIV@NVX Freedom is a feature.

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    4,476
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Futuremark Respond to Driverheavens Geforce 6800 IQ issues.

    No, we are just "biased" to what is better.
    The article actually WAS a research itself, because it was an experiment with 6800 and 3Dmark; or am I wrong?
     
  16. dsdsdk

    dsdsdk New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2003
    Messages:
    586
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    0
    hehe, i'm a believer in the hardware being optimized for 3dmark.
    if you take a stock 9800xt, lets say you get 6700 3dmarks. on the same rig with a 6800U you would get almost 11700. almost double score... (@ 1024*768 res)
    but when you look at real-game benches the fps are not double.. and this is consistent from game to game. (maybe you get double fps in serious sam 2 (opengl) but who really cares?) ok gotta admit UT2004 fps is great on 6800U (again opengl).

    FarCry is dx9 right?
    and so is 3dmark03.

    9800xt: 6700 3dmark , FarCry 60,2 fps
    6800U: 11700 3dmark, FarCry 71,2 fps

    hmm...?
     
  17. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    likle thay said they don't just driver cheats there are more "hardware" based cheats now





    just rember nvidia pays future mark alot of money to be in thier dev program, so they wont say much that will tick the off they want thier money
     
  18. DriveEuro

    DriveEuro New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2002
    Messages:
    4,677
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't know what to say to all this...
     
  19. snuffy

    snuffy Just one of the many.

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I have had it....I am going to buy a Matrox card...at least I know it will be slow and they never update drivers so I don't have to worry about one driver being better than the others....better yet I am putting my 4MB S3 Virge PCI card back in.....maybe I will put my voodoo 1 card in so I can play Halflife @ 15FPS.

    You guys are crazy.:duh:
     
  20. jonis

    jonis Alien mindbender

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    539
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You can't compare those two that easily. FarCry chokes on the system cpu more than 3dmark03. I mean, compare the results of Commanche4 running on the same system using first a geforce2 and then a 9800xt.

    Some games/benchmarks are very cpu limited. 3dmarks is not.
     

Share This Page

visited