Gay marrage on the ballots in some states...

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by The_Neon_Cowboy, Nov 7, 2004.

  1. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    Erm... maybe because it's utter midless bull? Some Japanese game shows are fairly notorious, But hey they can be quite funny to watch too. As far as I'm aware they are intended for a largely adult audience. Not entirely my cup of tea - but a lot of it has to do with the way the Japanese view themselves and their history. They see themselves as being fairly tough - so able to withstand many discomforts that normal (Western) people would find difficult to deal with.

    Well in almost every respect I could point you to some equally sick Western shit. All you need is google and a sick sense of curiosity. I could point you to sites showing murder, rape, suicide, drug taking, torture and general phyisical abuse all mixed up with the most obscene kinds of porn imaginable including child porn and beastiality. You are very short sighted - or do not have much experience of the internet, if you do not imagine that this kind of stuff exists. I'm not going to start posting links here because it isn't really my thing - but I have been on the internet long enough to know it is really quite easy to find some pretty mind twisting stuff. And I guess you imagine your own culture is free of all this stuff too? Have you been to your local adult store recently? Pornographic cartoons are not at all simply restricted to japanese culture.

    Kamikaze pilots were not 'chained into their airplanes' that is another nonsense. They were all volunteers. What they did may have been wrong - but few people doubt their courage. It was a tragic waste of life certainly - but it came at a time when Japan - and the world was very different than it is today. The Kamikaze pilots came at a time when the japanese navy had been roundly defeated - and the next stopping off point for the American Pacific Fleet was the Japanese mainland itself. This was a last desperate measure in an attempt to prevent what increasingly seemed inevitable.

    And if Japan wasn't so advanced, how come we have so many fine electronic goods from them? Some of the world's coolest innovations come out of that country. Virtually all of the best gadgets and electronic consumables I own come from there. Even my car is Japanese. (Toyota) so I think it's fair to say they are a little more advanced than the tree swinging murdering raping barbarians you appear to be making them to be.

    Japan has a pacifist consitution - which effectively forbids them from engaging in combat operations - so making them out to be war like bloodthirsty monsters is a long, long way from being accurate. They haven't been involved in any major combat operations from the end of WWII - and more than this they barely have any real armed forces to speak of.

    They kind of learned their lesson after the US dropped two atom bombs on them and fried a few hundred thousand of them in a very short period of time. Who I wonder really was the barbarian there?

    They do not eat dogs and rats. Well certainly not rats. Rats are disease ridden animals, anyone eating them or trying to exist on a diet of them would get ill and probably die very quickly. I do know in Korea in certan parts of the country side, eating dogs is seen as nothing more dramatic than eating a goat. Perhaps you are confusing the two? In any case why not eat dogs? You do eat sheep, cows, pigs chickens fish and whatever else - so why discriminate? Some of these people are very poor and can't afford to discriminate like we do.

    And I guess you don't have gangsters, rapists, murderers, drugs and pollution in America? You want to play with numbers? I'm pretty sure I could show you statistics that showed these were much more prevalent in America than in ANY other part of the world. So why not say it is an integral part of your culture too?

    Anyway guess who you are likely to offend most around here with these kinds of comments? The forum administator for this section is Japanese in origin. You really do seem to have an awfully bad habit of offending virtually everyone you meet.

    GJ
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2004
  2. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    Anyway, it would help if we got this thread a little way back on topic...

    This isn't supposed to be some silly little point scoring game.

    GJ
     
  3. Senor_Mota

    Senor_Mota 悪魔の方法

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  4. TJ-

    TJ- New Member

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    calm down guys.......
     
  5. solar_flare

    solar_flare New Member

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    i wonder what gays see in themselves. i wonder if they know its wrong. come to think of i wonder if our brain so complex or complicated in such a way that it is possible to be attracted to the same sex.funny animals dont seem to practice this.probably homosexuality was there for ages or the affinity was there but it was just to shameful to be shown by people due to religion.
     
  6. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    Animals do practice it. http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm An old girfriend of mine once had a dog that was totally gay. If there was a bunch of other dogs all playing together, her dog would end up humping every single one of them, except the ones that were female. For some reason it always seemed to avoid the females.

    More reading about homosexuality in animals here and here. It's a big gay world out there.

    GJ
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2004
  7. Pompey

    Pompey New Member

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    I don’t see why we shouldn’t give gays the same rights as us. The argument against it is completely baseless.

    Homosexuality was both common and accepted in ancient Greece, one of the greatest influences on the modern western world. If marriage is a holy union between a man and a woman then why has god not struck down everyone who has ever been divorced? (And don’t tell me about the story of the sinful cities) The nature of the charges currently against some catholic priests taints the religious argument even further. Anyway I think we could do with more gay people, the world is overpopulated as it is. We don’t need more babies.

    The civil Union bill giving equal rights to gay people recently passed here in nz (I think 65 for and 55 against). America needs to follow suite, many other western countries had previously passed similar laws. The nation that was founded on liberty and justice is now following the conservative path as it still tries to spread democracy and liberty. Maybe the statue of liberty should be holding a bible and a gun.

    Mota, don’t hold WWII over Japans head. Are we to hold it over Germany’s head? Please tell me where you come from. I’m sure I could find something to wave in your face.:annoyed:

     
  8. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    You do realize there have been cultures that have had a type of gay marriage and never experienced these worries you have right? Actually many native American tribes had a type of gay marriage. Some of them believed their were three sexes, male, female, and the gay one which they ascribed their Native American word for it. We went over three Native American cultures in my Marriage and Family class.

    And the whole world is one big jerry springer show already. We've got a monkey who just won as president over a wax doll, China still eats dogs, eats, and other rodents, the middle east has legalities in which it is permissable to murder a woman in your family if she shames the family. Come on now, it's not like the world is a nice and normal place as it stands lol
     
  9. Vasot

    Vasot Banned

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    "Cough" not Exactly:rolleyes:

    Not all of Greece
    There was some some groups that had some "specific sexual preferences" in certain places in Greece just like after in Rome (especially the rich and powerfull Hegemons of that time etc )
    but the General average\poor Greek population did not really accepted that and even stoned to death Homosexuals if not mocked them

    Greece was never a Free-gay country (except for some rich and powerfull)
    These kind of orgies happened in secrecy mostly in Palaces etc

    At that times if you were powerfull and rich you could do almost whatever you want (orgies, murders etc) and the average\poor or below status citizens did not dared to question you for the obvious reasons...
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2004
  10. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    We read that those in high society Greece and even Rome believed that the best love was between a man and a boy. But they never married, the men were usually married to women and had extramarital affairs with the boys.
     
  11. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    Well there was an entire island populated by women who openly engaged in gay sex. It was called Lesbos (and still is) - and Greek soldiers are well noted for having openly engaged in acts of homosexual lovemaking before commencing battle - as they believed it strengthened the bonds between them. Greek myth and history is full of stories of close relationships between men - and perhaps a little more oddly between men and young boys - although I'm not sure how young young is in this instance. But certainly relationships between much older men and boys of 15, 16 and 17+ were not all that unusual.

    Of course the modern Greek orthodox church are not all that comfortable with this aspect of Greek history and culture - and have preached against it for many years - often attempting to make the practice seem less prevalent than it was. However as the history of the peasantry is not well recorded, we only have the testimony of the educated, artistic and intellectual classes to go on. And certainly from their perspective, there was no real dilemma between heterosexual and homosexual love.

    We could get very boring and technical here and dig up many stories and descriptions of how common and accepted these practices were - and indeed I would be happy to do this if anyone wanted me to. Nonetheless it is entirely possible that the lower classes, the peasantry and the other generally uneducated types in society were less accepting of such practices than other groups. Perhaps this has always been the way? But as I said, since this part of Greek history is not so well recorded, there is no real way of knowing.

    One thing I can't get over is why you guys keep referring to gay people as making a 'lifestyle choice.' If that were true then what about the research I pointed to that shows homosexuality exists in animals too? You can read it again if you want at the top of this page.

    Are you seriously suggesting that a goat or a pig is capable of making a lifestyle choice?

    Come on now, be serious.

    GJ
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2004
  12. Vasot

    Vasot Banned

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    Exactly as you said
    For the High society (not everyone of course)
    and these "Orgies" happened mostly in secrecy not in the open streets with men and boys holding their hands and kissing with the mouth etc

    Marriage between MEN never happened in here
    For the Rich and Powerfull "orgies" these kind of relations between men was something like "Natural pleasure" but never happened in public, and was spread mostly through rumors...
    It is little difficult to describe in English

    It was not the same for the average and below status citizens as most of them Mocked Homosexuals or even stoned them

    Not everyone in Greece accepted Homosexuality and mostly these happened in secrecy by certain individuals from the High society and not from everyone
     
  13. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    Well like I said modern Greek orthodoxy has a different spin on the entire thing. But all we have are historical texts to go on - and these do not describe the attitudes or practices of the lower/working classes in any great detail. The texts that do exist suggest a somewhat 'different' perspective.

    The Orthodox/Christian church hadn't even been dreamt of in those days - so what the average person's views on this subject really were is impossible to say.

    GJ
     
  14. Vasot

    Vasot Banned

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    -But we are not talking about goats and pigs and the other animals
    We are talking about humans :)


    -Not all Lesbos was gay women (the so called Lesbians)
    Relax

    There was a certain woman called Sapfo from Lesbos that had relationship with her female students and that's all
    She was in love with a man at the start but after her rejection and disappointment she started having relations with women in her cycle and especially her student (she had a poetry school or something like that)


    Anyway not everyone admits it that she was gay because they say she suicide for a man (Faionas)

    not the entire island of Lesbos were gay women :rofl:
    Who told you that??
    I hope your Country history books does not say that...It would be unaccurate

    As for Soldiers having Gay Sex i never heard of it and nothing official exists about that...Mostly rumors just it happens with Sapfo from Lesbos
    but gods having Gay sex, yes these is a example with Zeus and another guy
    if i remember well

    I did not said that Homosexuality never happened in Greece
    Just it was made mostly by individuals (especially drom the Powerfull ) and not in the open eye

    The same happens to High society of Rome later as i had read (but i guess a Italian would know better to tell you the details)
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2004
  15. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    So, your distinction is? It is you who called it a 'choice' if it were a choice then that would still mean we couldn't explain why animals engage in homosexual activity too.


    I should think it was a very odd if the island was completely gay. The population wouldn't survive for long if it did. OK to be more accurate there was a town in Lesbos called Mytilene where women are said to have traditionally gathered - and where is it widely regarded that they engaged in homosexual practices. Happier? I don't think it is such a big coincidence that these stories emerged from there - and that ever since throughout history, females who indulge in homosexual practices have been known as 'Lesbians'.

    Well that is what most people in the world are taught. It's odd that you should come from Greece and say it ain't so - but there are lot's of examples in Greek history and culture of homo-eroticism, some of the most notable being in Plato’s Symposium, Homer and various stories relating to Alexander the Great.

    I am aware that there is some discomfort in Greece among certain modern sections of society with this aspect of their history - but that doesn't change the many references that do exist.

    Part of the reason for this denial, I think, can be attributed to bad scholarship of the past. As we all know, Victorian and Edwardian scholars made valiant efforts to explain away clear historical references to homosexuality. Their embarrassment about such references is aptly summarized by a passage in E.M. Forster’s novel Maurice, in which a university instructor tells a student who is translating Plato’s Symposium, "Omit: a reference to the unspeakable vice of the Greeks." Other Victorian scholars would show even less integrity than the tutor, translating the passages so that the classical authors appeared to be speaking about platonic friendship.

    In any case i think it would make a fairly interesting tactic. I mean just think about what the sight of 10,000 men buggering the life out of each other on the battle field would do to any potential enemy? Any self respecting army confronted by a sight like this would undoubtedly take to their heels and run. Especially if it could be made clear to them that they were likely to be next. :D

    That may or may not have been the case. As I said, history is usually recorded by intellectuals. There is little or no written history of the peasant classes, so what they did or didn't believe is all just pure guess work. The written history that does exist suggests a much more tollerant attitude towards such matters - so which perspective is likely to be more accurate remains open to debate.

    I'd rather avoid getting into an argument over ancient Greek history - as it is a pain in the ass subject (excuse the pun) that I am not very interested in, but I will dig a little deeper if you want me to.

    It shouldn't be too hard to churn up all the stuff I learned at school again. :)

    GJ
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2004
  16. IvanV

    IvanV HH Assassin Guild Member

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    What a mess...

    There are so many posts that I would like to reply to that I don't know where to start. I'll try to stick to those on this page...
    As far as ancient cultures are concerned, there was never legal marriage between people of the same sex. And the Roman high society became so perverted in time that they even had babies in whorehouses, so I really woldn't use them as an argument.
    Also, if someone tried to explain that being gay is a natural state because there are gay animals, that doesn't hold water either: Since the purpose of sex among animals is very clear, it is merely an anomaly. And anyway, the only gay animals I have ever seen were two male cats of a friend of mine, who only became gay after an older male cat, that was much bigger and stronger than them, had sex with them when they were very young. (That old cat humped every cat, male or female, that he could get.)
    One last argument remains, the one of human rights, and I think it is the only relevant here. As far as I can see, noone is hurt by somebody's being homosexual. It is slightly different when it comes to allowing homosexual marriages and giving gay couples all of the rights of heterosexual ones, because one of the things this comes bundled with is allowing those gay couples to adopt children. And the reason I'm opposing that is that each of the parents (of different sexes) have special role in child's psychological development. Therefore, allowing this would be an experiment on the children they would adopt, and nobody has the right to do that.
     
  17. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    I don't think you can dismiss the research into gay animals that easily. It is far too widespread and really quite too common to be considered an anomaly. In any case isn't that what you are arguing is also the case in humans? That gayness in humans is an anomaly too? Read the research I pointed to previously. You can't simply dismiss it because you find it inconvenient.

    And why should you make an association between gay people and the fall of the Roman Empire? The Roman Empire fell due to a general decline into decadence and neglect. There is no evidence that all of those responsible for this decline were in any way exclusively (or even partly) gay. The gay population has remained fairly constant in Human society at around 2 or 3% of the total for as long as records have existed. I should imagine that the same was true in Roman times too. So whatever the reasons there may have been for the fall of the Roman empire, the gay population are likely to have had very little impact on it.

    Nonetheless I personally am not too sure about adoption. If gay people want to marry then fine. But adoption is never something that should be entered into lightly. If a gay couple can persuade a straight (or lesbian) female to carry a child for them - then fair enough, at least there is that biological link - but putting an adopted child in this situation is a lot for most people to get their heads around.

    Anyway it is interesting how you bestow human values on your cat - as though it were somehow capable of consciously 'corrupting' other members of it's species. I think you will find that these are almost exclusively human issues and that really your little story owes more to things you may have read in the conservative/Christian press than anything that has any actual basis in reality. Most animals are little more than a collection of nerve endings and subconscious urges - and although some animal lovers here might object - like many gay humans, i doubt your cat would have benefited very much from any in depth counseling.

    GJ
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2004
  18. Vasot

    Vasot Banned

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    Sorry but what are you trying to say ??? :hmm:
    that my today Country religion affects my judgement for my history and what have learnt here since was a baby and probably have altered Real History facts

    I am not from these kind of "religious fanatic types" and not the entire Greek people of course. I am mostly "I do not believe God exists" types

    Anyway Religion has nothing to do with my point of view in Greek History and Homosexuality at that times and what we Greeks believe in here and learn since childhood

    Is your Religion affects you and your people of what do you believe about your History and homosexuality ??

    There are of course examples...I do not deny that Homosexuality was never existed in Ancient Greece as i told you before

    But it's another thing made by individual groups and another thing saying that all Greek Nation do that

    I expain you more below
    Yes i am happier
    because saying that the entire island was GAY is different from saying that only a group in a town of Mytilene (which even still today exists) was GAY

    and still many was mostly Gossips and rumors spread around with no proof

    Many even are unsure if she made suicide for the love of a man or for a woman
    Anyway nothing is so certain as what is truth and what was lie about Sapfo the lesbian and her Circle

    It's Nice that now you have cleared these out and you are more specific these time

    Anyway if you have read Homers Iliad and Odyssey you would understand that many ancient Greek writers loved to mix rumors and Fantasy with Facts
    and even these were added in many ancient Vas as pictures etc
    That does not make that the story true and that really happened or that happened that way or everything of what that picture or text says is true

    And yes Details like these makes the difference
    It's never nice not saying "all the truth"
    It's embarracing for me that i am a Greek and for the rest of "us Greeks" History

    If i told something like that about your Country History you will probably be pissed and felt unfair or just laugh about beeing a ignorant and know the half about the truth. Unless of course if you are not so proud about it

    Man never married a man in Ancient Greece and it would never be accepted a Homosexual marriage and there is none ancient Greek Text saying about Homosexual marriage but Homosexual sex is another matter

    -also there is an example of a ancient Greek writer mocking Homosexuality and referring it as Corruption concerning a Greek ruler sexual preferences (i will try to find the Ancients writer name and refer him to you if you want because i do not remember the name right not...i was just a kid since they told me)-

    There are some representations of Homosexual sex that happened in certain places and certain town by certain people
    That does not say that All Greeks did it and really was accepted as somekind of Tradition that everyone did
    anyway still there were many of these just rumors that easily could be made as pictures and can easily be wrong and not true

    Comparison between todays Homosexuality with Ancient Greeks homosexuality
    is a little "thin affair" and easily can be misenterpeted

    I do not think that it was exactly appropriate to make similarity of ancient times Homosexuality with Today homosexuality in the first place

    (Sorry if my English are not so good....i hope you understand of what i am trying to say)
     
  19. raid517

    raid517 New Member

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    No, I am possibly not all that clear about what you are trying to say - but it's not your English that is the problem.

    Anyway you don't have to be a Christian to understand how much the Church has influenced modern day opinions on these subjects.

    I really don't get what your problem with all of this is. I mean to my mind it simply adds to the romanticism and allure of ancient Greece. I make no comparisons in my mind between homosexuality in ancient Greece and homosexuality now. For many Greeks as has been mentioned many times now there was no stigma.

    Unfortunately Greek history is something that is very widely taught - so I am not trying to tell you your history, I am simply repeating the history that was taught to me and to countless thousands of others around the world for the last couple of thousand years. You may have been taught whatever you may have been taught - but possibly you were a baby no more than 30 or 40 years ago - whereas Greek history stretches back over 2 or 3 thousand years - which is more than enough time for the Church to have done it's best to alter attitudes.

    But if you want a good book on the subject I recommend you read "Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents". This book is much more informative than I could ever possibly be and details many instances in Greek history, art, mythology and culture that clearly demonstrate a general sense of acceptance towards homosexual practices. But again - it should be made clear that it bares no relevance to what we know as homosexuality today. It is quite wrong to look at things in that way. It would make no sense to judge the ancient Greeks though our own modern and somewhat distorted perspective.

    The book is a tad dry, but it it extremely in depth and it stuffed full of all of the things we know about homosexuality and ancient Greece. They certainly don't teach you all this stuff in school - which makes it all the more fascinating to read and learn what ordinary life really was like within these unique and ancient cultures.

    I understand your discomfort - suffice to say that perhaps not all Greeks in modern times (or perhaps in ancient times) are all that comfortable with some of the aspects of homosexual relationships. But really you shouldn't take such matters so personally. Greece is still seen as the cradle of civilization - the birth place of democracy, art, philosophy and literature. All of the things that we are today are widely regarded to have grown from there. I have no doubt whatsoever that we will continue to learn from the Greeks - and that in matters of love and human relations in general, as in so many other matters, it is undoubtedly the Greeks who will provide an inspiration for a genuine way forward.

    Perhaps in time we too will learn to be as accepting and open towards homosexual relationships as a certain 'section' of ancient Greek society were? If that ever does happen, then I at least will consider this real and genuine progress.

    GJ
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2004
  20. Pompey

    Pompey New Member

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    Ok, I think the issue of homosexuality in ancient Greece is starting to take over the board. It was perhaps wrong of me to say it was totally accepted in Greece when Greece was a collection of individual city states, with their own laws and attitudes. I was just pointing out that it wasn’t considered as 'sinful' as it was in the later Christian and muslim countries. It was more common in some states like Sparta and less common in others.

    Ivan, how do you live in today’s world! Let’s just say for argument sake it is an abnormality why should we discriminate against it? Nothing in the world is 'normal'. Are you anti-abortion? Marriage could also be considered and abnormality if you compare it to the animal world. Some animals do mate for life but most choose their mate each breading season. They go for whoever they think will give the best offspring.

    The connection between marriage and having children was created by humans. There is nothing that stops an un-married couple having a child. However having a child requires both a man and a woman (married or otherwise) so as raid said the issue is open for debate. But the two issues are separate. This is about gay marriage not gay adoption.

    As for those people who STILL try and push the religious viewpoint, Read a history book. We tried religion, It resulted in mass-oppression, corruption and murder (not that this is limited to religious groups).

     

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