I hate intelligent design

I'm sorry but the wikipedia is only evidence of your gullability and lazyness. Very sad.

 

A couple of things many here don't seem to realize about americans (at least the majority of those I've met):
1) I was taught evolution in school science class - granted - it was more of a glossing over - and more time was spent on stuff that could be proven by experiment. But ID was not introduced until after I graduated.

2) Hypocracy is a sign of non-faith. How does a priest - a suposive moral role model - justify pedophelia - did god test them and fail, leading to eternity in hell.?? Did god fuck up and make that priest a defect?
A preist should know better, that if he was having such urges - to seek help before someone gets hurt.- right? - OR did that priest get into a preisthood - for the purpose of abusing their power?? Hmmm - if THATS possible - how about the pope - did he just NOT get caught??

3) Its socially frowned upon admitting in public ones lack of faith in god. They'll even lie to avoid confrontations or arguments that lead to 3 mile long forum thread equivelents - and say - 'yes, I beleive in god'

4) most of us belived in santa clause, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy etc.. - until we were smart enough to figure out that those were lies as well. - Lies meant to influence a childs behaviour - its like Religion V1
Where Catholisism is upto V15806534 - and thus, much more effiicient, has had the majority of the bugs worked out - and only needs updates to deal with issues of that era. Like divorce, our origins (even many church leaders now buy into evolution, but insist god caused the big bang. Which covers thier religious ass' when evolution has been proven. But what caused the big band will probably NEVER be proven so...- pretty smart IMHO on those relgious leaders part)

Doesn't it makes sense to have a phoney icon like santa clause for a child in their formaidable years - to teach having faith in that which cannot be proven?? - To me it all seems very calculated but good for the counties economy - thus, it also makes sense why our gov't keeps 'in god we trust' on the dollar bills. Yet we have 'freedom of religion' - so what...?? as long as your religion includes a gods - your ok??

edit:
Ultimately my point is...

Stats may show we are a religious nation - but our behaviour indicate its no where near a deep seeded faith - some may think it is.

 

If you have anything to add about god or the big bang, I'd be happy to discuss or refute it, but there's not much I can say is response to wikipedia making me dumb and apathetic.

 

So you don't believe in THAT either? :rofl: :lol: Yup, the earth is only 4000 thousand years old and dinosaurs only existed in adam and eve's garden folks! And what cave men? We popped out from incest immediately as homo sapien sapiens!

Oh come on, what do you think that dinosaur bones are? An international hoax? :duh:

I haven't been focusing on 1/16th mate... Anything you guys have thrown at me, I've responded to but the opposite can't really be said no can it?

And more proof that god exists? So one book = to the same as several thousand scientific journals and books? Oh please, you have NO SINGLE proof that god exists. Nothing that is irrefutible (meaning it's a fact). I mean, the bible isn't proof... It's just a book and I don't see god's signature on it... Nature isn't proof of god either since I believe evolution is mostly responsible... So what is proof of god mate? A near death experience? Child molesting priests? Come on, I'm curious!

And I totally agree with Maddog on every point he made!

 

I'm not saying your response to wikipedia makes you dumb and apathetic. I'm saying that wikipedia is not a reliable source of information and also the wrong type of information and using it to cite it as a fact for a theory. I'm sure any other dictionary would say the same thing on the "theory" of evolution but there is no fact to base this theory off of. While you may believe in the bible or not it is still something as opposed to the idea of evolution.

1) I learned about evolution the same way in school but we spent quite a great deal of timetalking about the theory.

2) Everyone is their own person and has their own path to take. God does not choose for use we choose for ourselves. He already knows the path he just cannot change it. To keep blaming Christianity as a whole for the actions of quite a few catholic priests is wrong to say the least.

3) What is socialy frowned upon should not even matter. Everyone should be thier own person and stop using other's beliefs as an excuse to stop acting how they want to. Truthfully nowadays it is socially frowned upon to even mention God or Jesus in conversation with another person.

4) Science states that something cannot come from nothing so where did the big bang come from? And where did that come from? Where did all the space come from? The Universe? There are no answers to those questions and there will never be. I didn't start believing in God because I needed answers, I did it because I needed guidance. As far as Catholisism it is more of a tradition than anything. I believe that Christians should have an individual relationship with God without always having the church.


In God We Trust, and anything else with the word God in it is part of this country's heritage wether you like it or not. It does not imply anything other than what it means individually to you. There is no reason to start changing our country to try and please everyone who thinks our government is trying to impose God on them. People should just learn not to be uptight and over analyze. Words are nothing unless you give them meaning, so if you read something that pisses you off you have really pissed yourself off where as the writer has not angered you (wether it was his intention or not).





perhaps its all a hoax, but bashing it wont further your cause just waste everyone's time.

 

Our world works on theorys, your faith in god is a theory. Over time all theorys will evolve and change, even religion does this. Evolution happens every day to just about everything. We as mortal beings, that are actully subconciously afraid of change and a loss of control of our surroundings, just wish not to acknowlage it.

 

Scientists still debate evolution so its not like they just said "this is how it is now believe it because we said so", and expected everyone to follow like sheep. They dont debate whether evolution took place, the evidence over whelming supports that. They debate some of the details.

FYI, the big bang theory does not state that the universe started from a single point. It states that the universe was cooler and less dense than it is now, we know the universe is expanding.

I guess you anti-evolutionist are not worried about a bird flu pandemic, since you believe bird flu could never mutate.

 

I think you mistake the usage of the word "theory" for scientific devices. In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable.

The theory of evolution is in with the likes of the theory of gravity, theory of relativity, electromagnetic theory or extreme value theory.

Perhaps one hundred years ago, evolutionary theory had as little proof as string theory does today, but it no longer remains logical to argue to argue against evolutionary theory. (Funny though, I never see people arguing about string theory online.)

I hadn't noticed at all... doesn't the president of the US mention God in his speeches? I myself have no problems with mentioning any gods or religious figures in conversation with other people.

Science "states" no such thing, in a way that is applicable to the birth of the universe. Nobody claims that science holds definate answers about any of those questions, however, neither are we going to give up and stop looking for them. That would be akin to giving up any scientific research in the past that has resulted in breakthroughs in our knowledge. While we can't be guaranteed of finding any answers if we keep searching, we can be guaranteed of finding no answers if we stop searching.

Yeah, congress replaced "E Pluribus Unum" (From Many, One) with it in 1956. Not that I really care, since we have a picture of the Queen on our coins, which is about as useful.

 

First off this speaks volumes:

Why do you suppose this is? because god has been shoved down our throats for long enough and were sick of it. Especially when we hear about all the corruption happening within the religious organizations.

Huh??? - You completely avoided/missed the point made.
A 'tradition' is more like a family camping trip or something - religion on the other hand has been using guilt to bilk the elderly out of their assets, even to the point of in-ability to pay for their needed precriptions. "buy you way into heaven' is seen on TV 24/7 nowadays. Its far less trivial that what you indicate. And definitly something that needs to be corrected.

I also see religion as a 'crutch' - that one relies upon for 'happiness' - when all that was done was be told a story/parable that eases ones anxiety. Something a good psychologist can do, and with out the un-just guilt. (which leads to lowered self esteem/respect)

So what kind of guidance does one get from a priest - its psychological. plain and simple. At least with a licensed physician, theres more 'policing' of their actions than the few covering huge regions, and practically no way of formal complaint unless its drastic enough to get law enforcement/courts involved. History is now proving how in-effective a system theres been to prevent abuse in religion.
Im not harping on the fact of the many/few that did the abuse, I talking about the systems lack of assuring abuse is kept to a minimum. (we shouldnt need protection from our moral leaders right??)

Recap of an old post I made in this thread....
Greek mythology (keyword here is MYTHOLOGY) USED to be religion, that science has debunked - its vain to think that can't happen again. Isn't vanity one of gods sins??

Anyones religious beliefs are fine with me - I encourage everyone to go to church on Sunday - (so the line at Dennys for breakfast is a shorter one ) BUT KEEP I.D. THERE and not in public schools/gov't. Separation of church and state - its a law.

Go ahead, pray to god, in front of me even, I can ignore it, but I cant ignore a failing grade on a subject thats based on NO evidence what so ever. (the lack of understanding something IS NOT evidence of god)

At least with evolution, significant evidence is how bacteria grows so rapidly, how we know organisms mutate and the fact our appendix is no longer needed. (or did god goof up there too??) Thus, WHY EVOLUTION IS taught in school. Things that can be proven through experiment repeatably. There NOTHING AT ALL like this that supports ID theory. Natta.
But we can calculate how quickly bacteria grows, how and why it grows. How to control its growth rate etc.. Thats right, we can play god to those bacteria.

Describe for me an ID experiment in a class room? You can't, ITS ALL LECTURE, something one can get in a church and no need to have a lab environment - as porposed by the ID proponants wanting to teach ID in science class - the ONE room in a school thats considered a lab - WHY IS THIS? - to stall advancements/interest in science is the only logical answer. What other reason could there possibly be? - so its considered 'science' and NOT theology?? pff. Open your eyes.

ID should be an elective and NOT a requirement to graduate. If its a requirement - its forcing religious belief. Period.

Tell me this - if theres more evidence of ID over evolution - why has evo, all along, been taught in school, and ID is now just popping up??

I can tell you why, because church attendance is WAY down, and falling fast. BUT - shove ID down a kids throat in school, and watch the church attendance increase. Its painfully obvious to me. If you don't see this now, you will someday.

Oh that, and now that evo is looking pretty positive, its debunking the whole adam and eve thing here, a previously significant point for religious belief systems. (if adam and eve never existed, so why did jesus come again, wasnt it an apple adam ate, the sin jesus dies for us for?? If so, this raises hugh questions to all the other aspects in christianity.

But you go ahead and 'sort of' believe in god - even if for the 'just in case' insurance, I understand I probably wont change your mind - but hopefully, some one who hasn't been guilted into 'gods wrath', may read what I type and say - 'Hmmm' and at least think before they blindly accept a decision crammed down their throat. I'll respect their decision either way.

But don't tell me to not debate it or that I'm wasting my time, or hurting some cause. And I wasn't bashing anything, it was confrontation. Big difference. Remarks like:

are elitist, and typical of 'religious activists'.

And comments like:

Proves my point of:

But I'll add 'our behavior and statements ...'

Does anyone else here laugh as hard as me when you hear the words 'Christian Science'?? - heh. THE definition of 'oxy-moron. (I used to think it was 'Military Intelligence', but at least they get shit done) - Just what has 'christian science' discovered?? - anything the mainstrean science community has embraced? anyone??

Religion has all along (since books have been written) been struggling to control what happens in science - to slow down their debunking of their previously profitable orginization. Im sure the pope of today doesnt want to be tomarrows mythology fanatic, and laughed out of existance, like them greeks way back whenever.

Really, GDF - I just don't want, what those greeks went through, to happen to you. - Keep your mind a bit more open than what this seems to indicate:

And...

Im not offended by the word or the idea of god, Im offended that we supposivly have freedom of religion (means free to NOT have religion as well), and seperation of church and state - I belive its a sort of brainwashing, intentional or not - I belive its why those stats/chart indicate we are religious nation over all.

As GDF indicated, our nation was founded with 'god' in the paperwork, and I have no intention of 're-writing' the delcaration of independance, the bill of rights or our constitution simply to omit that word or sentiment, but I think, its innapproriate, in a 'free' nation, for its gov't and/or its officials publicly display religious bias - him simply stateing that word, gives an indication, and the 'monekey see- monkey do' factor starts rolling.

And quite frankly, it doesnt instill my confidence, having a fairy tale follower, as our nations leader. (How does one who uses god in a speech that sends our troops off to a war thats un-justified, over-extended, and obviously for additional motives than 'removing Sadaam'.??)

ALERT - NUCLEAR STRIKE - ENROUTE - ALERT.

Id rather not have G.W.'s FIRST thought to be 'pray' - and then, when its too late - think to fire off our retalitory shots...

 

being native american born and raised on my reservation and not a christian, I cant believe the whole "bible" thing..

Science has proved our people can be traced in this country for 40,000 years..

I'm not saying that there isnt some sort of "higher" being as all peoples and cultures have their own beliefs...

the bottom line is "mother earth" is the giver of life and we are slowly killing her, once she is gone all the praying in the world wont save you as we will all be dead.

just my 2 cents

 

My mind is very open actually. My point was that Christianity was based off of the bible. The bible is very real unlike a theory which is only a thought. The "Overwhelming" facts that the Evolution and the big bang are based on are really just logical thoughts.

At this point I do not see the reason to argue as none of you will change your opinion. Goin to a tech site and argueing about religion is a waste of time.

Refusing to do a class about ID or anything just because of your beliefs is truelly being closed minded. No one is asking you to believe it or live it, they are just asking you to view it. Your are still not proving your point though and I don't think anyone can convince the opposite otherwise so this arguement is truelly a waste of my time.

 

Something people seem to forget is that the theory of evolution (and it can only loosely be called a theory, since there is no way to prove it in a laboratory) goes against the very scientific principles they claim to adore. The fact is that a scientific law we can observe and reproduce is the law of entropy - things don't get more complex over time, they break down and deteriorate. If I leave my car in the yard for 20 million years and expect it to turn into an F16 then I'm ignoring scientific evidence to the contrary. And if I find a car in a pristine world and don't come to the conclusion that it was designed and engineered by someone with technical knowledge, I'm intentionally ignoring the obvious.

 

Saying the bible is "Very real" is kind of stretching the definition of very, and heck even real. The bible is the current incarnation of what the church wants you to belive, its a guide book -- it was writen long ago, by some one (no one knows who for sure, but we know who they want us to think they are!) I know, sounds crazy, but it is true -- how do you know the bible is what it says it is? You have to take some ones word on it.

Science class went right over your head dident it? Ok this is how it works, life adapts or changes to fit its enviroment. Over a long period of time genetics traits that are "better" or more usefull in an enviroment will allow the creatures with those genetic traits to live longer more productive (or reproductive if you will) lives, whilst other creatures lacking those genetic traits will not. It is not purly random, though it may seem, it is just far more complex then most people can understand, or care to spend the time to learn about.

 

Wow, now that's just plain stupidity mate... You are taking the example of a dead inert object to disprove evolution of life? Wow, that's a first...

Okay now the whole problem with that is that its not ONE ape that evolves in 20 million years but descendantes and it's descendantes and etc... Honestly, some of you guys need to think a bit before even trying to post.

 

For some reason this reminded me of an episode of Moral Orel where he talks about thinking and how if you actully do it a lot of stuff that religion dictates is bull and that to be a good christian he should just not think.

 

Hey, religion > science right? :rofl: I don't mind anyone's belief in god but to go to SUCH extremes to disprove something like evolution is not only worrying but just freaky...

I thought humans had started using their brains after the chruch lost it's authority in Europe a few hundred years ago... Before, what was said by the chruch was accepted without a doubt. Guess that's still the case No curiousity in any of these people!

 

While the way he stated it kinda disproved itself he brought up a good point. It seems we as humans are not really evolving but the opposite. We may look at ourselves smarter than previous generations but we really are not. With each generation we build off the last with inventions and so forth but if you look at world leaders back when America was founded and before that time, they are leagues ahead of anyone we have to offer now. Same thing with the time before that. You could probably take the average testing score for a state and see that it does not increase as the years pass. It seems if we were actually evolving our intelligence would adapt and evolve also.

Also anyone take a look at like your high school yearbook than one of your brother and sister, or parents? I noticed at the same grade the children seem signicantly younger looking each generation.

Until science can actually prove evolution, the big bang, and what ever else then I will believe it. Even if it can prove it I will still believe in God.



Truthfully though, what are your guys objectives in this thread? To try and change someones religion or belief?

And Sandok, Sarcasm is a weak argument because you are attacking the person not the problem.

If a really fat man tells you that you need to lose wieght, his size has no merit to how true the statement is. What your saying is look at the source of the arguement not the arguement itself. This implies that you have a prior problem or feud with people who believe in God and inted to attack them instead of the facts, therefore making your arguement irrational.



I'm sure I could Analyze all day, but it truelly is a waste of my time and I have better things to do.

 

The reason it apears to that people are geting stupider and it seems that we are de-evolving is because we no longer have to fight to live. The sick, the meek, the mentaly ill are all taken care of with medicine and health care -- their genetics are still passed on instead of being left out by evolution. This is not to say that we are stoping evolution, we are simply taking it in a diffrent direction then it has been taking for several thousands of years.

Mainly society is to blame for the young children becoming adults sooner and being stupider for it, not genetics, not evolution, we as people are to blame.

Also my objective in this thread is to shine light on some ideas that people have that are almost harmfull in their ignorence. The Nazi theory of a super race sounds like a good idea to some one, many parts of scientology are just as dangerous -- If one does not belive that things can evolve then we will not be prepared for the desises and viruses of the future.

 

God you really think that in just TWO HUNDRED years americans have evolved? For the love of ANY GOD, please stop writing such nonsense. You don't evolve in a few hundred years at all... You evolve in millions!

And proof that humans are still changing is the fact that the growth of widsom teeth (which are from our ape ancestors) are less compared to about 100 years ago nonetheless. Genes do change humans.

To see just how desperate the arguments become on your part...

Yes well if you'd actually READ, you'd see that after making fun of him, I answered the problem. Oh well, pity you didn't see that... Glasses?

WTF? Where the fat guy come from? I have no problem with religous people at all but what I do have a problem with is the fact you can't prove otherwise... And honestly SFOSK, read all the posts in this thread before making such a "bold" statement cuz I've been attack the arguments, not the god parts. You say the carbon dating is false? I argue to that... You say that cars don't turn into F16s, I argue to that... You say that your american ancestors are the same as you, I argue to that...

Honestly, READ mate...

Yes please because your analysis are well, analysis of what you think you're reading (which is different from reality sadly).

 

Victory is Mine - Mwahahahaha!
No, your VERY closed minded, you only think your open minded, if you dont see my evidense I pointed out as evidence here:

ALL of which can be proven through lab experiment.

Oh and the big bang theory has astronomical observations that support the theory, btw.

The bible is as real as 'mary poppins', the book. Both contain moralistic messages that can benefit mankind, but have a fairy tale twist - only ones tales are designed to entertain and keep interest, the other seems more designed for mass manipulation and control.

And ITS NOT A MATTER of me refusing to take an ID class - its about making it a required subject to graduate in a public (federally subsidized with MY tax dollars) school.

THIS IS THE PART YOU SEEM TO BE AVOIDING.

whats YOUR objective.??

And if a fat guy tells another fat person to loose weight - IT MAKES HIM A HYPOCRITE - If hes right or wrong - its still hypocracy. The weight is not the point, the hypocracy IS.