iTRAM issue with 14 sample delay(S)

Discussion in 'Effects and the DSP' started by Thelace43, Jun 6, 2012.

  1. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    Hi,

    To all those who have helped me thus far, thank you!

    I now need some answers that I could not find in a search, so I went and signed up on here. Please help:

    I am working with 4 inputs on one card that all need their own 14 sample delay effect, so that they are in perfect sync with a second card I have going into one of the digital ins.

    Problem is, I can't use more than 3 of the SmallDelay plugins, because of my insufficient amount of iTRam. I need all four in's, so mixing to stereo is not an option.

    I am using an Audigy (sboo90) card as my main (4 st analog input), and am thinking that using an Audigy 2zs will give me the iTRam to add this fourth Smalldelay effect that I need so bad. Will this work? I only need these 4 effects.

    I am using v3538 and mostly using ProFX, although I don't think that's too important.


    Thanks again,

    Mike
     
  2. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Audigy and Audigy 2 are both 10k2 models with the same amount of hardware resources.

    Are you using any other plugins that use iTRAM?

    The Small Delay plugin is going to reserve enough iTRAM for it's highest delay setting. If you are using multiple instances of it, with each instance using only a fraction of the possible amount, it will waste some of the iTRAM resources.

    If you need an exact (i.e. non-adjustable) delay amount, then you can save some resources by making your own delay plugin(s), that use only as much iTRAM as is necessary. You should be able to find some examples of how to do this in the forum, and you can even use the Dane code of The Small Delay plugin for reference (i.e. set The Small Delay to the setting you want, and then look at it's code, and use the same settings (iTRAM addresses, etc) in your own plugin (except the iTRAMSIZE which should be set to the amount you need (e.g. 15 samples)).
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2012
  3. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    I would think that the Small Delay's highest delay is still pretty small.. and I'm surprised that just using 4 of these is so taxing, and I'm not using anything else that uses iTRAM.

    I'm tempted to ask you something like "I don't know how to make a 14 sample delay plugin, would you do it for me?"... But I'll go do some reading. : )

    Thank you
     
  4. Max M.

    Max M. h/h member-shmember

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    Îòâåò: iTRAM issue with 14 sample delay(S)

    assuming you need a single channel plugin:
    Code:
    name "_delay14"
    guid "F8DCA0A3-373B-4D5C-968B-67A9A737777E"
    
    itramsize 16
    
    idelay write din at 0
    idelay read dout at 14
    
    input  in
    output out
    
    macs   din, in, 0, 0
    macs   out, dout, 0, 0
    
    end
    
    
     
  5. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    After 30 min I finally found where to learn how to do this, but it would have taken me the rest of the day to figure it out I think. I'm going to try this....

    ..............

    Well, I opened up a delay effect, I clicked edit, then I went to 'New' (or whatever it says).. I pasted the info, saved it to desktop, double clicked it, but it said something about 'Invalid sample library' or something.. I got frustrated. Then I compared 'The Delay's code to what you sent me and realized that I pasted it so that only what you sent me was in the window, and there was none of that 'new source code' stuff at top. (forgive me, this is all on another computer on the other side of the house, so I don't want to run back and fourth just for details)

    Lo and behold, it worked like a charm! Perfect sync!! 10 track simultaneous recording with no phase!! (6 for now, until I get another audigy.) Thank you!!!!!
     
  6. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    In older versions of kX, there needs to be a blank line after "end".
     
  7. Max M.

    Max M. h/h member-shmember

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  8. stylus02

    stylus02 New Member

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    that brings me to an idea to synchronise any application with its specific delay (vst, dx, mme, asio, etc.). nice..
     
  9. janez

    janez Active Member

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    So an SPDIF out and in connection causes exactly a 14 Samples delay?
    Did you measure that?
    I guess the other inputs are UDA and Aux2. Or UDA and AC97?
    Are they in perfect sync with each other?

    So far I basicly used my second card for a Reverb and an sa- and a little delay didn´t matter. But for multitrack recording it makes sense.
     
  10. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    Yes, I made an SPDIF connector by soldering coaxial cable to 2 plastic jumpers that have been melted together. It looks like a four pin connector (all in a row, not stacked), but it is of course just 2; the coaxial and ground go into the jumper's outer holes and it attaches to the soundcard's internal pins. I could have ordered the cable, (and eventually will) but I'd have had to wait for it. :mad: If you want a photo I could post one.

    Anyway, to answer your question, I measured it (I'd have to have bat ears to tell it was a 14 sample delay!) by routing the analog-in L to left and the digital-in L to the right. I don't remember if the analog in was AC97 or UAD. I then played a simple mono track from a external source and plugged it in to the computer with 2 1/8" cables using *what could have been a headphone splitter*. I then recorded a short bit, turned up the track to see the wave form better, and used Sound Forge to zoom in to a micro-digital view. It displays the individual samples as though they are automation nodes (you can even edit them). I counted a difference of 14. After using the small delay, (as well as the simple one Max M. wrote for me) I checked it using the same method and it lined up perfectly.

    ***From the external source to the computer, I used an 1/8" cable that came to a left, right, and sub-woofer female end.. it's for a computer speaker system. I could have used a splitter though.***

    The stereo inputs on an Audigy SB0090 are AC97, I2S (or UDA, I believe), SPDIFIN1 (Coaxial/Optical SPDIF IN), SPDIFIN#2 (Z Video I2S IN) and SPDIF IN (CD_SPDIF).

    I have NOT tested the delay between AC97 and I2S yet, what a grand idea though! my computer is all rigged and ready, so I will be back in 10 min to post my findings. I'm also going to be using the other 2 SPDIF ins when I get a third audigy card.

    Also, I have another Q: I tried to copy and register a tremolo effect from another thread, but it wont show up on my effects when I right click..(and yes, I scrolled to the end of the list) Should I reinstall the kx drivers, or what? Maybe it was made for a later version, but it said Successfully registered (1) plugin when I double clicked it.

    -Mike
     
  11. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    UDA actually has a 12 sample delay from AC97, which I used to measure SPDIFIN against. I can also test the other 2 spdif in's and will report that back here. The client card I'm using is a Live! card, BTW. Ha! I hope that I'll be able to edit and register the 14delay that Max made; as said above, I've had some problems with it. So for now, I'll delay the AC97 by 14 and the UDA by 2, so it can catch up .. or fall behind.. with the others! This is fun!
     
  12. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Dane (i.e. kX Editor) only plugins will work with any version of kX. Only plugins compiled in C++ (i.e. .KXL plugins) are version specific.

    If it was successfully registered, then it should be there somewhere.

    Some effects listed in the forum might have been included with the driver at some point, in which case it may be under one of the effect sub-menus. If you cannot find it, try changing the GUID and re-registering the plugin (BTW: You can generate new GUID's from the kX Settings menu).
     
  13. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    Just figured out what I was doing wrong, it was the GUID; I was just copying and pasting the same one, and didn't even think about it. Thanks for the advice, is the GUID just kind of a random sequence? I thought I was playing it safe by using the same GUIDs, that was my problem. Also, I think I didn't change the actual name, but rather I just saved it under a new name. Thanks again.
     
  14. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Yes, GUID's are basically pseudo-random number strings that are designed to be globally unique. Of course for kX, they only need to be different from the other plugins.

    Each plugin should have it's own name and GUID.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  15. janez

    janez Active Member

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    I got the idea, I made a couple of strange adapters myself.
    To access the pins on the card or a Frontmodul I modified CDrom 2 Soundcard Audiocables.

    Thats how I would have done it, too.
    you might need different fixed delays. First to compensate all the analog inputs you use on the secondary card with each other, and then the ones on the main recording card with a fixed offset for the delay caused by the spdif connection.
    Do you use Frontmodules? The analog Aux2 Input on the module uses the I2S input on the chip. So Aux2, UDA and AC97 might have different delays.

    Also you might run into difficulties making the Zvideo Spdif in work, as it requires a 5 Volt input signal.
    But if you do you can have up to 12 mono analog inputs simultaneously with 2 Audigy Cards.
    Take a look at my 2card setup, if you like:
    http://www.hardwareheaven.com/general-discussion/212521-dual-kx.html
     
  16. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    I have all my cards displayed on the left of the DSP window.

    The first card is an audigy as a four mono channel ADC (this is a profx plugin). It's using my CD in as AC97 and Line in as the i2S. (We are in the audigy's DSP window right now; it's our main card.)

    My second card, a Live!, is displayed as a two channel SRC plugin (profx). It's using the audigy's S/PDIF in.

    The third card is a Live set up the same way: a two channel SRC, but using the ZVideo in.

    There is another stereo digital input (CDspdif) that I would use, but I either need to swich out one of my Live! cards with an Audigy for it's extra ins, or get a 3rd Live!. I will check and compensate for any delay when the time comes.

    All of these 'cards' have a different delay amount except for one; it is already ahead of everything else running into the ASIO. The delay effects are all within the audigy's DSP. At one point phase was an issue too, but the final check revealed none.

    I don't know what a Frontmodule is. I was under the impression that I2S and UDA are the same thing and that there are a total of 4 mono analog ins and 6 mono digital ins. .. that's 10 inputs, not 12, as you say below.


    Hmm, I don't really understand the link, mainly because I have been using the zvideo spdif in without a problem so far. Is that a Frontmodule in your photo?
     
  17. janez

    janez Active Member

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    So no frontmodules and no breakout brackets, just the pins on the card.
    Apparently it works, as it should, as the pins do carry a 5 Volt spdif signal.
    Its just my experience that it does not always work the way it should.

    The SB0090 is a great card with a 10k2 Chip and two stereo ADCs onboard.
    Its extremly cheap on ebay. You seem to have many PCI slots.

    As long as you use only one set of converters per Card thats all you need.

    The UDA is a analog/digigal converter and the I2S is a digital input on the DSP. I´m not exactly sure how many I2S inputs there are, but the Aux2 on the frontmodule uses one. Maybe the UDA does, too. I guess it does, as it doesn´t use an spdif in.
    Not in your setup. I was assuming 2 Audigy cards (SB0090) including 2 Frontmodules. In that case its 6 Stereo or 12 mono inputs, plus a Mic in on the Frontmodule, which makes it 13 actually.
    Without Frontmodules you only have two sets of converters per card. With an old live only one.

    Yes! In terms of compatibility there are two types, as there are two different pinouts for live/Audigy1 and Audigy2. Thats an advantage of using the old Audigy. The older Frontmodules are cheaper and easier to find.
     
  18. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    I have been under the impression that the mic, the line-in, the aux, and the CDin are all going into the same ADC. That then becomes two digital channels to work with, not 6. Sure, there are 6 inputs (and a mic), but there are really only 2 channels of audio available once it is digitized, and I might as well just be using a mixer. With Audigys there are two ADCs, therefor 2 more channels. I believe that what I'm doing in my DSP right now is telling my physical line in to be UAD and my CD in to be AC97.. that's what my ADC says I'm doing in the DSP. By the way, I'm not the expert so please correct me if I'm wrong, anybody.
     
  19. janez

    janez Active Member

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    So far so good, but you have to distinguish between the amount of analog inputs and the amount of available ADCs. There are a couple of analog inputs in the AC97 Mixer mixed down as you described. In the ADC plugin you can route this to either the UDA or the AC97 converter, but only in cards where that second Converter is available.

    thats right, but only in the live models. The audigys have an additional converter

    correct!
    And if you use a Frontmodule (live drive) you have two more addtional converters, the Aux2 and the Mic in. (thats not the one on the backside of the card)
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2012
  20. Thelace43

    Thelace43 Member

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    Ohhh,.. I thought that a Frontmodule was basically just a way to 'turn up the volume' or, say, 'Plug a guitar into your computer'.. That is to say it was just a fancy sound interface that everyone could see, understand, and use without adapters.. rather than dealing with the 1/8" colored circles and anything that required mouse pointer skills.. and mainly that it was just connected to the main card via wires internally and didn't actually have a DSP. So if I have a Frontmodule, it shows up on the main card's DSP window rather than as a separate card? Is it a part of the ADC? Do I need to 'check' anything like I need to do to use the Audigy's second sterio in? Thank you!!
     

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