new Noise Gate plugin

Discussion in 'Effects and the DSP' started by Russ, Mar 21, 2006.

  1. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok - thats what I thought...

    I'll concede - I am forcing this into a NON-noise gating situation... but If im not using a NG for that - its for things like a reverse effect - which as is wouldnt be practical...
     
  2. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Do you not hear the popping/distortion - I hope Im not driving you nuts for a function you may never use it for... ??

    if your testing with your guitar - try a sustained clean sound....
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2006
  3. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well, there is something causing distortion with low hold times, like you noticed (and I hadn't noticed before), so I will have to figure out what is causing that. I haven't noticed any popping as of yet.

    <edit>
    Ok, I hear the popping now as well, but still only with the low hold times.

    <edit2>
    No, I hear it when the gate is releasing too. Bummer, that is one of the things that I noticed about the bundled gate plugins that I wanted to avoid.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2006
  4. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I found it (the popping) to be more intermittant than the last version... but I still hear it...
     
  5. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yup, it is there.
    I have a couple ideas on what might be causing it and some possible solutions, so I will have to give them a try.

    Thanks again for testing (and no you are not annoying me, lol).
     
  6. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Im thinking you might want to raise the min HOLD time to about 10ms - could help ..?? I wouldnt go above 50ms tho... transient response will start to be affected and audibly affected.
     
  7. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I do not think it should effect the transient response, because it does not modify the signal when it is holding (unless it is still in the attack phase). But, I would not want 50ms of noise, after I mute my guitar strings either.

    Hopefully I can figure something out, otherwise it has no use, as the bundled gate plugins do it with only 8 instructions per channel (they just need to be fixed so that the dB scale is corrected). I was hoping that it would turn out better than those plugins, to justify the extra resources.

    In any case, I will see what I can do, but it is late so I need to get some sleep.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2006
  8. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    well, 50ms is pretty fast still, and of course would depend on the relase time too..

    I have no doubts you'll figure something out.

    And - the bundles NG's seem to have more issues than a forked db scale... I hear distortion with those as well in similar settings (I just now tested...)

    and - it seems un-reliable in its threshold settings..

    edit... g'night - sleep on it...
     
  9. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Well, some of it is expected with really low hold times. Take a normal sine wave for example, at certain points during it's natural cycle, it is going to dip below the OFF threshold. The min hold time should be high enough to prevent these normal fluctuations from triggering the gate.

    i.e.
    Take a 50 Hz sine wave. That is 50 full cycles per second or 1/50 = 0.02 seconds per cycle. Since we are talking about the absolute value here, we should only need half of that, thus for a 50 Hz signal, the hold time should be no less then 0.01 seconds.

    So what we really need to test, is if there is distortion, etc, when the hold time is adequate for the content.

    i.e.
    Try something like the following with a clean guitar signal:
    ON: -16, OFF: -24, A: 1.0, H: 0.01, R: 1.0
     
  10. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well - with V2 - I was getting popping with Hold >~75ms.
     
  11. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Yeah, I was mainly talking about the distortion during attack.
    The popping I think has something to do with the ON/OFF thresholds being too close together, under certain conditions.

    i.e.
    If the ON/OFF thresholds are fairly high, then the signal level (i.e. clean guitar) drops from it's peak, pretty quickly. I think the popping has something to do with the attack being applied while the signal level itself is going down, and then when it switches to release (before the attack finished), the volume level jumps. i.e. attack time higher than the hold time, with ON/OFF fairly close together (close enough that the signal level drops below the OFF threshold on it's own, before the attack time has completed).

    i.e. If you connect the signal directly to a peak meter, and the signal out of the gate to the second input on the peak meter, you will see the level going up on one side (during attack), while it is going down on the other side (but proportional to the signal level). Then if release kicks in, the volume ramp starts from the full signal level, so it jumps.

    Maybe, I should initialize the release counter with the current value of the attack counter, and start the ramp down from that point instead. That would make the release time different under those conditions, but I think it would eliminate the popping. Does that sound logical?
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2006
  12. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    BTW: I thought I should mention that it is not like typical envelope settings (used for other purposes). i.e. The attack is only applied when the gate first turns on (and during the attack time period), it is not applied every time the signal level goes up (unless the gate has switched OFF again). Release works similairly (i.e. it is only in effect when the signal has dropped below the OFF threshold, and has remained there for the duration of the hold time). If the signal level goes above the OFF threshold at any time during the hold or release period, the signal is passed through unaltered (unless it is still in the attack period... hmm, I made need to adjust the attack counter for this situation as well (sync it with the release counter). I do not know. I have to think about it. I want to try and work it out in my head, as much as is possible, before making any changes, to make sure there will not be other side effects.).
     
  13. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I updated the plugin with the changes I mentioned above. It is now version 1.2 (still the mono version only).
    Let me know what you think.

    Thanks,
    -Russ

    BTW: Make sure you compensate with the hold/release times as you move the ON/OFF threshold closer to each other. i.e. You can not expect it to be stable with a short hold/release time, with a threshold difference of 1dB between ON/OFF, etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2006
  14. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    @thomasabarnes,
    I compiled it for 3534f, but I currently do that have that version installed to test with.
    Can you test it for me, and let me know if it registers correctly, etc?

    <edit>
    I sent you a PM with the download info.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2006
  15. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2005
    Messages:
    4,027
    Likes Received:
    26
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok - I can only compare this to NG's Ive used previously...

    IE - with A/H/R = .5/.0001/.5 - is 1 second of NO LEVEL change no matter if thresholds have been detected during the envelopes ... thus the HOLD shouldnt have any affect, or at least not cause the pops/distortion from the instant level changes ...

    V1.2 now works exactly as I would expect untill I lower the hold <20ms - I still hear a few pops / distortion in this condition...

    So I'd say its not *perfect* but its DEFINITLY working better than the bundled NG's...

    Is the release NOT taking its set time if the ON threshold has been detected..

    OR is the remainder of the release trunkated when the ON threshold has been detetcted?

    Maybe Im not verbalizing the best... Ill try to make a lil drawing to illustrate my Q...

    Ill be back....
     
  16. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    This version works the same as version 1.1 except under the following conditions.

    If the state changes from Attack to Release before the attack phase has finshed, the Release begins from the current attack level. Vice-versa if the state changes from Release to Attack, before the Release phase has finsihed.

    As for the 1 second of no level change with your above settings, that does not make sense to me, as the attack is a ramp up, and release is a ramp down. I have never used a real gate that allows you to set all those parameters, so I have nothing for comparison, but I made this plugin work the way I thought it should work logically. With this plugin, a hold time of 1 sec, with min attack and release times would give you 1 second of no forced level change (hold does not alter the signal).
     
  17. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,404
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Russ:

    I read your PM before I saw your post in this thread.

    I was thinking this was a noise reduction tool. Seeing that it's not. I don't even know how to use it. However I did register this plugin, and it registered OK and loaded OK, too.

    I was looking for a bypass feature, so I could quickly hear the difference between having the effect applied and not. I right clicked on the plugin and selected bypass from the menu and kX Mixer crashed. I was trying to see if I could bypass the effect that way. I/m sure I shouldn't have done that, and I'm thinking you will include a bypass for it as it evolves. I'm just guessing here as I really dont know how to use such a plug in.

    If you continue developing this plug in, I hope you will consider writing a Helpfile/Manual for it. One of the reasons kX users can't or don't use a number of kX plugins is because there's no help file or manual to help understand some of them. I know some plugins are self explanatory, but I could argue that some aren't.

    Anyway, thanks for remembering my interest in this plugin.

    EDIT:

    Just read your 2nd PM. This is what I am looking for. The noise floor is what I want muted. I just started reading up about using effects like compressors, EQ, and Reverb. And some of the terms like noise floor are used in some of the articles.

    I'll be testing this plug in, but I might need some guidance.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2006
  18. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    I added the 3534f version to the download pages.
     
  19. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Hmm, I wonder why it crashed when you tried to bypass it. It must be something with 3534f, as I have no such problems. I will have to look into it.

    Thanks for trying it :)
     
  20. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    5,722
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    @Maddogg6,
    When you heard pops/distortion, what where the other settings, and what type of signal were you testing with (so I can try and replicate it, or determine if it is something where I expect there to be some noise, etc).
     

Share This Page

visited