Plasma and LCD Killer Abandoned

Discussion in 'News Discussion' started by Tahir Khan, May 26, 2010.

  1. Tahir Khan

    Tahir Khan Hardware Geek

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    Read Full Story Here.
    _________________________

    SED a potential replacement for Plasma and LCD technology has been abandoned by Canon due to expense
     
  2. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    and that it ended up being a backtrack idea as well after lcd technology made some serious leaps and bounds
     
  3. Tahir Khan

    Tahir Khan Hardware Geek

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    I movie viewing and live action I still think LCD is not suitable.

    LCD's have an annoying trait of losing pixel fidelity in high motion scenes.
     
  4. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    really?

    aside from panasonics 600mhz plasmas... the motion and effects and everything on LCD is clearly superior provided with a quality LCD HDTV... everything else is just garbage
     
  5. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    You're mistaken, the best LCD can't match the best Plasma in motion and quality. LCD's employ all sorts of terrible speed up tricks to smooth out the image and it looks ridiculous. A plasma that can display 24p content without judder or artifacts is already superior to most LCD's and many midrange plasmas do this.
     
  6. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    You missed what i said about the panasonic plasmas...

    and i've seen and toyed with several high end plasma displays and LCD displays..

    Any LCD with Motion Interpolation will kick the crap out of most plasmas provided it's decent, But considering long term and such, i'm watching Plasma after plasma TV drop dead or become dim and dark where as a same age LCD continues to provide like new picture.

    IMO if it isn't a panasonic plasma with 600hz, why?
     
  7. dipstick

    dipstick New Member

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    No way judas, that fake 120/240Hz motion effect is the worst thing I have ever seen. It makes everything look so weird; kinda like you are watching a morning talk show or something. Its not natural and it shows.
    But really, both have their strengths and weaknesses over the other but in a dark room nothing beats a plasma whether it be it a panasonic, samsung or even lg. Also don't fall for the Hz numbers from either side, 120/240/600/1 million...they're all BS!
     
  8. Tahir Khan

    Tahir Khan Hardware Geek

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    Hi Judas

    There are other plasma's out there too, like the LG and Samsung range also.

    It is not an issue related to the refresh rate but the response time and sample and hold. It seems even an LCD with extremely low response times would exhibit motion blur or motion detail loss.
    However LDC's also have a slower response times which means that they lose image fidelity and effectively pixel resolution in high motion scenes, even more so. You really have to pay through the nose for LCD's that are beginning to overcome some of these limitations but still do not fully resolve them!

    Plasma technoloy avoids this issue, and it is even less pronounced on the best plasma screens (including the Panasonic models that are not 600Hz) the effect is negligible.

    Here are some articles testing the very issue:

    Flat-panel TVs: plasma, LCD, and how they compare (the higher end 120Hz and 240Hz sets have better processing and not due to the higher refresh however they still don't compare to Plasmas)

    Home Theater: Motion Blur
    The speed at which a liquid-crystal pixel can change its state, say from black to white or from one shade of gray to another, is called its response time. There is no set way to measure this, so the numbers are essentially meaningless, but that's a whole different GearWorks. These numbers (for TVs, anyway) are often quoted as 6 milliseconds or, in some cases, as low as 4 ms. The slower the response time (as in the higher the number), the more blur you'll see. You're seeing the pixel twisting, trying to keep up with the video. The problem is, 4 ms is still slow enough for some people to perceive the smearing from one frame to another. For most people, this might be "fast enough." But here's the real kick: Even if an LCD had a response time of 0 ms, it would still have motion blur. How's that for crazy? The culprit is called "sample and hold."


    LCD TV vs Plasma TV Which is Best? from LCD TV Buying Guide
     
  9. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    100% Correct! I almost laughed as a salesmen told some customers the other day how amazing this LCD looked that has this running as it played Avatar and the movie looked like it was on fast forward. Even a several year old Plasma such as Pioneer Kuro's are better than LCD's but the they aren't made anymore as it's just a matter of time before LCD tech catches up to Plasma. I've heard black levels on the 2010 LCD models are almost as good as Plasma so we're getting there. Probably the 2011 or 2012 LCD's will be superior to Plasma's but not yet.
     
  10. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    How do you guys dislike something like motion interpolation?

    Have you guys ever watched videos that were recorded at 60fps+ and playback 1:1... they look ALMOST identical, way better yes, but close to what motion interpolation attempts to do? Looks way more natural, less juddery, the only complaint i have ever had from anyone that didn't like it actually stated that "it looks to real" and has lost it's "cinima" because it's to real.

    Personal oppinion and whatnot is fine, but personally the biggest limiting factor i wish TV and broadcasters would finally drop would be NTSC and other video standards, move to something better, more world wide broadbased and really push the limits of digital, 60fps minimum or 120fps video encoding would be stellar.

    The responce times for LCDs and the currently encoded stuff really makes little difference, and when OLED displays become available... we'll be really rocking.
     
  11. Tahir Khan

    Tahir Khan Hardware Geek

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    When you have high motion live scenes the effective pixel resolution of the best LCD's drops from 1080p to about 600p.

    Plasma TV's drop as well but the best drop to about 900p. There is documented evidence for this - motion blur and motion interpolation are not fixing the same issue.

    With the advent of 3D LCD's the maximum fidelity is starting at 800p, then will further drop in high motion live action scenes.

    I have seen this again and again with friends (high end and low end) LCD's and this is where Plasma technology still trumps LCD. However the latest LED LCD TV's are really good but sooooooooo expensive - a cheaper Plasma would be a better buy - IMHO.
     
  12. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    Sadly enough there don't seem to be any 3D capable plasma tv's.
     
  13. Tahir Khan

    Tahir Khan Hardware Geek

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    Saw a Panasonic 50" plasma with 3D technology about 3 weeks ago in Currys (UK).

    Even the rep said the plasma edged out the LCD they had on display.

    Good news at least you get two pairs of glasses with the Panasonic plasma but at £2200 you would expect that little luxury anyway.
     
  14. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    I thought Plasma's weren't capable of the latest 3D iteration because they can't do that kind of refresh rate. I figured that would be the death knell for Plasma's, pretty cool if they can do it that will keep them alive.

    IMO, if you don't mind the extra weight, heat, power usage and break-in period then Plasma's are the best alternative to projectors for home theatre displays. People are so wrapped up in buzz words like LCD and OLED they don't notice how cheap plasma's have gotten :taste:
     
  15. Jac

    Jac Well-Known Member

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    Personally 3D doesn't interest me for a home system. If I want to see a blockbuster style movie with all the bells and whistles I'll go down the local IMAX. That experience cannot be topped for movie watching IMO.

    I even feel having a 50" widescreen 7.1 system at home kind of detracts from the movie going experience! How long before crap like Lost or even Eastenders is in 16.1, SuperHD, 3D surroundomax.

    As for the home I'm looking for a good, cost effective 30" or so display with good power usage, excellent image quality and most importantly deep deep blacks. My current economy LCD is poor when it comes to blacks. I was hoping on OLED or maybe local dimming but these techs are still annoyingly absent.
     
  16. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    What do you know. Just had a check and I could find 1 Samsung and 2 Panasonic Plasma with 3D. Problem is, they were all to big for me. I really can't have more than 42", don't have room for anything bigger...

    Oh well, 3D is probably to soon anyway, there's no real standard for 3D television yet. Better wait a year or two but I have to get a new TV, no HDMI on my old CRT and no TV out on my new GFX card, and I don't want anything else than plasma.
     
  17. dipstick

    dipstick New Member

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    That dummy, he probably had both motionflow(120/240Hz) and cinemotion(2/3 pulldown?) enabled. That will cause some weird funkiness with the playback speed; especially on something like avatar. Don't fully judge it on that, I actually like the effect in avatar and anime.
    The Kuro is definitely still the champ but I'm hoping panasonic starts to make good use of the pioneer tech they now own. A kuro dressed as a panny running for less than $1500...:drool:


    And Judas, you're right, it is just personal preference but I also think the location of the tv should also matter. For example I would not get a plasma for a room full of windows or use one outdoors.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  18. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    lol..... no a plasma REALLY doesn't like to be even in a humid building let alone anything outdoorsy or full of windows..

    Although a LCD doesn't like direct sunlight either :p

    But i know a few people that have a cheap 32" or larger LCD mounted on the outside of their house under the eave of their roof so they can watch and do shit on the deck or in the yard and still see everything, even with a "bag" or it or whatever when big storms come, i've seen them yanked the bag off and notice that there are water marks and such all over it and it's full of dust and grime, not at all taken care of. However the sucker keeps spitting out a pretty damn good picture and keep ticking. Top it off even with the bag on it, it is in direct sunlight as it's on a south facing outdoor wall. And it's worked just fine for about 2 years so far. It's a Samsung series 3/4 TV.. so 720p/1080i
     
  19. dipstick

    dipstick New Member

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    well, I was leaning towards the glare issue with that but man you must have had some rough experiences with plasma:tears: Not sure why they've been dying out on you but i seen many with thousands of hours on them and they like new. I won't argue that lcd is not more durable, just the glass on plasma makes it a pain in many ways including transport but its a small price to pay imho.
    It's too bad tho, I think you'd really like the experience while saving some cash and/or going bigger in size:evil:
     
  20. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    Burn is the biggest problem..

    and it's a huge issue i think that effects them..

    after about 2500 hours plasma clearly show degradation, and at around 5000 they start to get quite poor in terms of clarity and brightness.

    The thing is... while having both typical plasma that are good quality from panasonic and having a samsung 6 series tv setup beside it.... while the price is almost identical, 90% or better of the people that come in and see it pick the lcd tv playing back blu-ray 1080p movies...

    And i can clearly see a huge advantage..

    Throw comptuer or console on that sucker and things see an even more massive advantage for motion interpolation.
     

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