possible ati 'optimisatiion'

Discussion in 'NVIDIA Graphics Cards' started by mike2h, Nov 30, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
    lookin at the images quickly i see no major differences - both look pretty good imho

    i'll play games no matter how "good" the graphics are, as long as the gameply is up to par
     
  2. Ubergrendle

    Ubergrendle Semper ubi sub ubi

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    702
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Not sure if I can agree with that statement.

    #1. Dx9 has FP24 as one of the two standards.

    #2. Everyone is arguing "FP16 is good enough", but what if Valve's argument is "FP24 is good enough to avoid FP32"? I'm sure everyone would agree there is a difference between FP16 and FP32. What if Valve was using FP24 in most cases to try and AVOID the coding for FP32 everywhere?

    I was looking at some benchmarks, and found this comparison for Dx9 2.0 Shaders in Far Cry. You can see that all the 'true' Dx9 cards perform very well... X800 is ~slightly~ better than Nvidia's 6800 line, but the margin is insignificant. I'm willing to bet even that Nvidia would win if the tests were at a higher res. The 9xxxx series though thoroughly trounce FX cards in these tests though.

    http://www.ixbt.com/video2/over2k4-fcs20-1024.shtml

    Only the best FX cards (5900, 5950) can beat the 9800pro, and then only the 128mb model.
     
  3. knyz

    knyz Author Spirit Drivers

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2003
    Messages:
    86
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Good day, good I like the graphic cards and this that she can do but me, I have gone out the spirit fury that uses the method fp16 for the geforces fx (modification sm2.0 of the to compile) but nothing of well astounding one, it is clear that there has a performance increase but the geforces fx or geforce 6 never will arrive at the level of the archicteture r3xx being given that nvidia... the nvidia have a partial precision, the data are slowed down... and the management of the shaders is poor ly to integrate to the hardware of nvidia, they would have been necessary to do a based games on are own hardware, nvidia does not want to respect the norms dx9 so worse for him... but this than it can do, this is to put the fp16 for the geforce fx, this will already be a beginning,the nvidia one a potential huge one but the one will not be exploited because of a false support dx9
     
  4. coldfrontt

    coldfrontt New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Neon-***I wish we still had 3DFX man would we all be bette off but nvidia forseen the threat and bought them out and added thier future features to thier FX line
    (thats were features like "SLI" came from)***
    3DFX screwed themselves and pretty much went out of business. Nvidia bought the leftover pieces, they DID NOT buy them because of future threats, as 3DFX had NO future. In fact they were behind the curve in many of their later products--such as only 16bit colour when everyone else was doing 32bit.
     
  5. Bicka

    Bicka Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    670
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    26
    So do the 6800* Nvidia cards force dx8.1 as well?

    If not, theres nothing to complain about...
     
  6. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Ask a gamer & experianced pc builder some time.... your either to young or too old or weren't into computers at the time...

    No future, they were young and about the the hotest thing since the dawn of personal computers when it came to gameing. they added all kinda of new stuff, new ways of thinking, things like SLI way a head of thier time. Insted of setting druleing of the ATI of nvidia card you'd been in the store druleing over a 3dfx one.

    behind :duh: Huh? I'd say they were a head of them selfs...

    Lets put it this way Nvidia bought then out and when they finally started useing the advanced technolgy they aquired (tech in use and stuf they wer working on) from 3DFX with the FX series. so good it was used years later, hardly behind. Remember 3DFX's time was before radeon / geforce ever took off..

    They were haveing financial problems wich stems from many things like developement etc. For example the 5500 had been out for a short while they were at the edge of relaseseing the 6000 series... they wer little guys filling big shoes. (means higher costs/lower profits ) but before they went into much production of the 6000 they were bought out.. even thier commercail they put out was funny... a first ... I've never see and ATI or nvidia commercail on TV EVER. Even if you did it's wouldn't be funny and make ya laugh... till this day thier commercal will made people bust a gut laughing...

    IF 3dfx was still going we'd all be better off today even if they wer the bottom of the heap they would have pushed nvidia and ati to strive harder and would of brung us new technoligies and brung us in new directions
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2004
  7. Ryan666

    Ryan666 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2003
    Messages:
    13
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Neon Cowboy, yes you are are fanboy, but you havn't opened your mined and closed your mouth. Actually the complete opposite, all you do is talk of your opinions with out even considering what everyone else has said. There is no denying it because as everyone can see your posts are at least 3x longer that anyone else and they don't contain very much relevent information about the thread. Also if u think some ones a fan boy just because they own a particular videocard, then you base your facts on very weak evidence.


    FP32 is the way to go, its the standard for OpenGL and it will be for dx10, so Nvidia do have a technical advantage over Ati for future software titles, but they just are implementing it at the wrong time so they have to compensate with other methods. I think nvidia has a much better gpu (N40 vs R420) if the can have on par performance with nearly the same specs (16x1 pixel, 6x vertex) with N40 running at aprox 80% the clock speed as R420.
     
  8. HardwareHeaven

    HardwareHeaven Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    32,274
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    88
    guys lets take it down a notch before it gets really out of hand, thanks.
     
  9. coldfrontt

    coldfrontt New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Neon, you're an idiot. 3dfx went down because they tried to produce cards themselves, and they were behind in the curve. see this review I googled at random.
    http://www.hardwarecentral.com/hardwarecentral/reviews/2509/1/
    which pits your 5500 against the geforce 2 GTS. Not that will change your mind.
    I was building and selling systems at that time, as well as gaming, and continually benched new cards cards as they came out. I'm not saying they were crap, or even very far behind, and were miles ahead of ATI and the S4Savage, which were the other players at the time. But they were falling behind, and losing much revenue lost from not licensing their chips as they had before. Nvidia put them out of business by licensing a better product to a lot more manufacturers, not by buying them to close them down as you so foolishly allude to.
     
  10. mike2h

    mike2h New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    6,359
    Likes Received:
    69
    Trophy Points:
    0
    coldfront. your post was right on the money but i think it is going to fall on deaf ears.
     
  11. coldfrontt

    coldfrontt New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Sadly, I agree.
     
  12. HardwareHeaven

    HardwareHeaven Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    32,274
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    88
    Hey guys how about when I post something saying we take it down a notch we actually do that? the first post right after mine started with an insult.

    Lets get debate back into the realms of maturity please, and this is directed at everyone.
     
  13. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    the correct term and descrition is enthuiast, sorry you can call me it all you want i'm not a fanboy. Maybe I come off that way I guess but the Facts are the facts.... no matter how you look at or beleave them... everyone has thier own openion and I don't under stand why people get so upset when some one expesses one you don't agree with... express your openion and move on....
    you beleavewhat you belive and I belive what i belive...

    Not recently no... let me know when you've spent about 18 hours a day on a pc for 1 year stright... nor the life time i've spent.. pc's are my thing.. I've absorbed an amazeing amount of information.....

    relivent to you and relivent to the thread / topic/ disscussion are totally diffrent things....

    I try to elaborate to be better under stood, I also tend to respomd to more then one post at one time insted of makeing 10 seprate posts with quotes

    It shows preferance.That alone can tell you wich comanys card they feel / belive is better. a impartail user useally owns more the one brand IE. ATI & Nvidia cards... When your a fan of something you will always be more apt to promote your *brand* and more apt. to put down the other *brands*.

    As you've already guess I prefur ATI for my own reasons, I also dislike nvidia for many reasons such as bussness tatics and ethics. even If I would be interested in buying one of thier cards I abstian... it's a matter of ethics

    ATI and Nvidia both put out good cards and the battle between them is tight hice the touchyness I guess if one or the other was a clear leader there would be alot less argueing on forums... they both have thier places

    But that speed is delt threw massive drivers optumzations and thew developer side nvidia card specfic optumzations... and there are tests in wich even a R420 beats or meats duel 6800U's clearly with the excpetion of ment to played or opengl games

    Another big problem with nvidia is partail support. For example partial DX9 support with DX 8.1 fallbacks...partail DX9C / PS 3.0 support... not cool


    Well your forgetiing thats one 5500, thats not two 5500's in SLI so you can add about 50-80% to the 3dfx scores...

    3DFX never really got to ship thier 6XXX line (wich the were on te brink of), wich was even faster... even though there are a few floating around....

    fogot about SLI didn't you [​IMG]

    (Wich reminds me the rule of thumb that started back then
    that was nvidia was faster ATI had much better IQ...)

    So behind the curve? so far that nvidia intoduced thier years old technoligy into their entire Geforce FX line [​IMG]

    so are you saying nvidia is far behind? they seem to be doing quiet well..
    especally with thier nex 6XXX series and thier new relliance on SLI (again 3DFX technoilgy) to help pave thier way ahead...

    not bad tech from late 1990's and y2k being used in 2005 and beyond
    I have to say they were ahead of thier time....

    maybe thats why nvidia bought them out, out right in late 2000

    I leave you with a excpet of a artical.... They had several good reasons to buy them out.. If they were you said they were nvidia wouldn't have bought them. They had things nvidia wanted clear an simple....

     
  14. coldfrontt

    coldfrontt New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2002
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Neon...no 3dfx product after the Voodoo 2 did SLI...as there was only 1 AGP port (remember those?)
    And Nvidias Scalable Link Interface, as described here:
    SLI stands for Scalable Link Interface. It is a high performance technology that allows users to combine and scale graphics performance by having multiple NVIDIA GPUs in a single system. SLI works by intelligently scaling geometry and fill rate performance for two (or more) identical boards.

    There difference in the way the technology differs from the Voodoo 2 SLI.

    • First, 3dfx SLI was implemented on a shared bus using PCI. The PCI bus delivered ~100MB/sec of bus throughput, while PCI-Express is a point-to-point interface that can deliver ~60x the total bandwidth of PCI.
    • Second, 3dfx SLI performed interleaving of scan lines, and combined in the analogue domain, which could result in image quality issues due to DAC differences and other factors.
    • Third, 3dfx Voodoo technology also only performed triangle setup “down†the graphics pipe, leaving the geometry workload for the CPU, therefore 3dfx SLI hence only scaled simple texture fill rate, and then used inter-frame scalability.
    NVIDIA SLI technology is PCI-Express based, uses a completely digital frame combining method that has no impact on image quality, can scale geometry performance, and supports a variety of scalability algorithms to best match the scalability method with application demands, as described by NVIDIA’s Director of Product PR, EMEA, Luciano Alibrandi, is not quite the same technology.

    yes banging my head against the wall DOES feel good...
     
  15. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    I'd argue, but i'm tired of this thread already i'm moveing on...

    we need to chill with the offtopic discussions anyways
     
  16. nookadum

    nookadum New Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2004
    Messages:
    35
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Partial support? Falling back to D3D 8.* IS part of the DX specification. Why utilize newer code to do simpler functions when the old code does it more efficiently?

    Perhaps you are right about the partial support, but they support OpenGL/Linux a LOT better than ATI does ATM. If they would stop with this CCC bullshit...
     
  17. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    16,076
    Likes Received:
    28
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Why don't offer full support? good question

    Of couse older direct X is faster but the so is the IQ much lower. So in effect they are still offering slower then ATI's FPS for lower IQ!!!

    i mean it sad when they don't full support DX 9,DX 9a,DX 9c, Not even full PS3 supprt only partial pixel shader 3 support! just the faster parts :rolleyes:

    I mean heck Dx8, games run really fastfor ex hl2 in Direct X 7, of couse the effects suck and the IQ is bad but hey it runs alot faster :rolleyes: :rofl:

    Well it seems nvidia is waiting / delaying releaseing thier own .net CP soultion to keep up with ati after seeing peoples responce to haveing to load .net and crying .... seems nvidia will wait.. too bad for them

    CCC RULEZ , mis information, and noobs suck
     
  18. rushko

    rushko Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2004
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    heh, it is an idea that matters so SLI is an 3DFX idea along with FSAA=fullscreenantialiasing and a lots of other quality stuff that nVidia got with the acquireing of 3DFX.
     
  19. gram_vaz

    gram_vaz New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    hi, though i agree with most of what u said i take issue with this little snipe at guru3d. i'm a regular at guru3d and i've found it to be some of the most fun and informative forums i've ever visited. sure, we have our share of idiots but nowhere near the amount i've seen on other sites.

    and noone i've seen on guru3d thinks dna are "original" or "good" though i don't know why u take issue with that. most ppl at guru prefer the ati catalyst drivers or the omegas.
     
  20. HardwareHeaven

    HardwareHeaven Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    32,274
    Likes Received:
    163
    Trophy Points:
    88
    I think this thread has ran its course guys, closed.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

visited