Recording Wave HQ 24/96 - required tweaks

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ursamtl, Feb 16, 2007.

  1. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    Yesterday evening I decided to go back to kx after a long break. When I changed back to the Creative in 2005, I wanted the 24/96 ASIO functionality offered by the Creative drivers and it seemed kx never really got around to that feature. Times change and my interest these days is more in getting the absolute best sound quality on stereo recordings (digitizing music from an audiophile turntable).

    I must say, figuring out how to get a successful recording of the Wave HQ device took some time! After a couple of hours scrambling around through various threads, online docs, etc., I succeeded. Here are a couple of key tricks I needed to get before it would work
    • I had to go into Windows Control Panel and set the default Playback and Recording devices to the kx HQ device.
    • I had to set the recording format to 96kHz sampling and 32-bit file. The 24-bit file formats didn't work.
    • I had to set the P16V recording input to IS2 (I have a A2 ZS Platinum with the turntable pre-amp hooked up to the Aux 2 input on my drive bay).
    So, it's working and I got great sounding results, but I'm confused about the 24/96 router. It seems I need to keep the 10k2 to I2S connection on for this to work. Why not the p16V to I2S connection?
     
  2. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    I'll add some notes that I think may add some important points in your quote.

    No - the 10K2 > Is2 connection - if connected AND you have the P16V connected in the KX DSP - you should hear the sound doubled. Keeping in mind that there are versions of KX that had a skin bug that made it difficult to see the current state of the 24/96 router, but seems fixed in 3538m.

    So if you can ONLY hear WaveHQ playback with the 10K2 > I2S enabled (green);
    1) WaveHQ ONLY works with 'front' outputs (for analog anyway - I2S = Analog; and that drop down menu to select what output is non-functional also) - and follows the 'Swap Front <> Rear' switch setting. And forget hearing 24/96 through headphones connected to a livedrive or from the rear 'Center/LFE' connector of the sound card..
    2) your actually hearing the reduced (16/48) sound coming out of the DSP thru the P16V plugin.
     
  3. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    If you want a simple way of recording/hearing from HQ using sonar LE, for example (should work with other similar software):

    - Clear the dsp (right-click, "clear dsp") - not the best option, but assuming you're not much into the dsp... if you want you can simply disconnect anything that's connected to the output you'll be using...

    - In kx mixer, go to the p16v tab and you'll see among other options I2S0, I2S1, I2S2.

    I2S0 is the line in/mic in in the frontal drive.
    I2S1 is the rear line in.
    I2S2 is the rca input in in the frontal drive.

    important: always exit the application before changing p16v recording source.


    ******In sonar:

    - Choose wdm driver (if necessary).
    - re-start sonar (if necessary).
    - in the driver tab, select only the ones wich have " HQ " in the name. Unselect all the others which don't have HQ on their name (if you have another card, check if it supports 96khz/24-bit), or you'll get an error message.

    note: You'll hear the sound thru software monitoring (i am assuming you know how to create a track with the input set to wave HQ and enable software monitoring), so you'll have to find wich output driver is the output you'll be using, in my case, I use the output wave HQ 7/8, which is the headphones out in the frontal drive. I set the track output to it.

    - driver should be set to 32-bit pcm, left-justified.

    - set sample-rate to 96khz/24-bit (if you get any error after pressing ok, ignore it).

    - set the latency to a confortable value. Any value that works fine is ok.

    - re-start sonar.

    By the way, asio4all works great with waveHQ from the audigys and my e-mu cards. I can record with the 4 cards below at the same time @ 96khz/24-bit and in sync. That's 8 tracks.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2007
  4. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    A couple corrections/expansions in bold:

    Also...
    edited - I was dumb....
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2007
  5. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Also - when changing P16V recording source in KX mixer master page - you only need to disable track monitor and re-enable it to force sonar in using the newly selected recording source, instead of exit/re-start sonar.

    Another note: - If trying to record a 48Khz SPDIF input - it will end up sounding like a chipmunk - I dont know what is supposed to do the SRC - KX or Sonar - but neither do no matter what I have tried (settings in KX and sonar) I presume only 96Khz SPDIF sources will work, but I dont have anything that outputs 96khz.

    Maybe its a bug with kX - I think I posted this info in the bug thread, but never seen any response - and has been this way for at least 3538J - 3538M.. ??
     
  6. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    ursamtl and Johnny1982:

    God bless you two! I couldnt get this Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro Mic/Line In input to work, but thanks to your posts I got it working. For me it seems to be necessary to select the Wave HQ device in Windows control panel, and to select the 32-bit pcm, left-justified driver setting in SONAR and enable the
    track input monitoring button.

    Thanks a lot to you two!

    I can't get a monitoring signal in ASIO mode! Probably a user error, but I'm gona keep playing around with kX and SONAR to see if I can get any success.

    It really means a lot to me that I'm able to do something with this new soundcard and kX! I think I'm still gonna get the Audigy 4 Pro because of the better ADC/DAC converters.

    The con side to this is that using WDM instead of ASIO the latency is noticably kinda high. I have to use a 20ms setting.

    I hope Eugene implements the ASIO 24/96 support. kX has some outstanding routing capability, so if I don't see the ASIO 24/96 support come, I can feel good about myself having what may be the best or most recent Creative soundcard that kX supports.

    I've got this ZS Platinum Pro working with kX now and I'm really happy! I express serious thanks to you guys!

    Now, let me go learn more about this p16v device.

    EDIT:

    Ah, the p16v is a hardware chip.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2007
  7. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    Try ASIO 4all on top of kx waveHQ (But make sure you only select waveHQ ins/outs)
    Mess with the settings to find the best configuration for you. :)
     
  8. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Im curious what latency you are getting using ASIO4ALL
     
  9. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    With one device I can use 5ms with waveHQ. If I use all the cards I must set it around 20ms.
     
  10. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Hey Johnny:

    Feel free to explain how to make the ASIO4all setup, as well!:)

    I'm new to this driver. As a matter of fact, I used the Audigy (first Audigy) and the kX DSP a lot. I can't setup the kX DSP with this new Audigy 2 ZS Plat. Pro, well, I'm stuck as to how to make the DSP work as I could with the Audigy. I'm not giving up though.

    I'm not making any promises, but whatever information I get here to make this A2ZSPlatPro work with kX and ASIO4all, I will most like place into some sort of guide or something, so it will be easier for the next person to get a working kX DSP setup.

    I appreciate all and any help I can get from you all.

    You, too Maddogg. :)
     
  11. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    Ok, here goes my setup (what's written above will be useful as well)...

    This is the setup for my laptop, but the settings are exactly the same for waveHQ in the desktop's audigy. Just make sure once more than only *HQ* ins/outs are enabled.

    [​IMG] (snif, no code)

    Tweak the "ASIO buffer size" if necessary.

    Then, go to sonar, select asio and select asio4all drivers (if necessary call the asio4all panel from sonar and do the above, as I think it uses per-application configurations).

    This works for me.
     
  12. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Just again for clarity - the KX DSP has NO AFFECT with 24/96 recording - only if you have P16V plugin in KX DSP will Wave HQ be heard thru KX DSP (otherwise, you would disconnect the 10k2 in the KX 24/96 router) - or thats the theory anyway - clearing the DSP has caused me differening results here. So - One may want to use KX DSP in conjunction (monitoring for instance) with waveHQ - which is my guess why P16V plugin exists - but caused me much confusion at first.

    Per application as well as per user according to ASIO4Alls faq.

    I would recommend anyone to read this as well - there *can* be sync issues with mulyi-card, unless you used spdif to sync them up - but its also my understanding KX/SB Hardware are not capable of this.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2007
  13. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Hi all:

    Thanks for the replies Gents.

    Johnny1982:

    Your last post was so short. hehe I tried doing what I think you tried to convey. My result is that I get a voice that sounds like Zeus when I use the ASIO4all driver. It locks the bit depth to 24 bit, so I tried changing the samplerates that SONAR detected (which was only 48000, and 96000). 96000 wouldn't work at all, and 41000, and 48000 gave me the Zeus voice.

    Also note that when I use the ASIO driver mode with ASIO4all, there is no driver name with HQ in it at all in the SONAR drivers property window.

    Maddogg:

    Do you know how to use the p16v plugin in the kX DSP? I'd appreciate any help.

    I've been reading about this p16v at the kX official site. I'm trying to understand how to use it in the kX DSP. My understanding is that it is an output streaming 24/96 playback streams from sources connected to the Audigy I/O Drive. I'm wondering if this is a paralell to the SRC ProFX Plugin and Prolog? It doesnt seem that that is fully correct, though.

    With the Audigy, I just load a SRC plugin, set it to wave 0/1 connected to MX6, and connect MX6 to K1lt. Then load ADC, set it to Mic and connect it to a MX6 channel, and I can hear/monitor the Mic.

    Why the heck isnt that possible using the I/O HUB drive for the Audigy 2 ZS Plat. Pro??!!!!

    Chit!!
     
  14. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Well - remember - if you listen to anything comming out of the KX DSP - its not 24/96 but 16/48 (with some technical exceptions I *think*, but this is for the most part) - the P16V DEVICE - is parallel to the 10K2 DSP - is this way to avoid the automatic SRC to 16/48 - this is ok if your monitoring 24/96 recording.

    Now also - notice, in Sonar, we can elect WHICH of the 4 stereo HQ outputs (Analog and SPDIF are also 'parallel' - and we select whuich with the connection switches in the 24/96 Router) - BUT in apps like winamp - we cant do that - only 1 wave HQ appears - AND the output select drop down in the KX 24/96 router doesnt function. So yes - wave HQ CAN be used with winamp but only for front or rear outouts (I confirmed this for analog, not sude how digital out would work??) And this also depends on the 'Swap Front <> Rear' switch in the KXS Mixer Master Page.

    If you choose to use the P16V plug in dsp - you might want to disconnect the P16V > output in KX24/96 router (which it is connected by default), I hear doubled sounds (muffled, low-fi almost) if not.

    Remember the P16V PLUGIN is a bridge of sorts and meant to FORCE 24/96 playback into the DSP - but can also come out of the P16V device at the same time if you use the P16V plug AND keep the P16V DEVICE connected in KX 24/96 router.
    So - using a SRC to convert to 24/96 - then using the P16V plugin to use DSP - is senseless use of CPU IMO - as it up-convertes (winamp SRC) the gets down converted again to 16/48 from entering the DSP via the P16V plugin.
    This act alone (up - then down conversion) can degrade sound quality.

    again - wave HQ playback is independent of KX DSP config unless the P16V PLUGIN is connected in the DSP - otherwise the DSP should have no affect.
    So in summation in using wave HQ for playback:
    1) disconnect the 10K2 > output switch in the 24/96 router
    2) or - force a SRC by forcing wave HQ playback into the DSP with the P16V plugin.

    24/96 playback through my livedrive is only possible in Sonar (er... not any media players that is) - as described above. I dont know why, it seems odd to me that sonar can see all the 8 st. outs of the wave HQ but winamp plugins can not.
     
  15. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    (Correct me if I am wrong) but I think that thomasabarnes is talking about something different. It sounds to me, that he is asking how to use the LD inputs (specifically the LD MIC input) in the DSP, for regular 16/48 stuff.
     
  16. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Well I suppose that entirely possible... but between the thread title and:
    I guess - maybe some clarification - or better yet a new thread would be in order.. ??

    But to answer that question - you would probably want to use a ProFx/SRC plugin - and set it to Line2 / Mic 2 (for the 1/4")

    Now I wonder, if there is a problem - if its a dynamic mic or a condenser mic - and weather or not the LD's jumper is correct. Another note is that - most pro condenser need more power than the LD offers - so an external phantom power supply (or a mixer with this) is needed - and set the LD jumper for dynamic type mics.

    Maybe theres a problem with EX style IO boxes .. ??
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2007
  17. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I was only speaking of the above part of his post (the rest is on topic), where it seems like he is looking for an equivalent setup for his A2zs Plat. Pro using the LD MIC input (and again I could be wrong, thomas?).
     
  18. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    Maybe... I only recorded for 12 minutes with four cards, but it was ok. 12 minutes isn't much to evaluate sync issues.

    thomasabarnes:

    I was probably mistaken about sonar showing "HQ" with asio4all (not at home now, can't check), but try this:

    When in sonar, first check the asio4all panel and make sure only waveHQ ins/outs are enabled (any change will require you to restart sonar so it can "see" the changes), then go to sonar's driver tab, I think it doesn't show the "HQ", now that I think of it... maybe something like "ASIO4ALL sb**** wave 1/2"...

    I'll post a pic of my driver panel in a few hours (when I get home).

    This is messy... :D
     
  19. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    That's right Russ! That's all I want to do. Seems like I wont be able to do that without p16v playing a paart somewhere. But I guess I'm just majorly confused right now. LOL

    BTW, hi Russ, and what took you so long to join in. LOL
     
  20. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Ahh - ok - well for 24/96 recording - you do nothing in the DSP (unless you want to *monitor* in 16/48 - and use the P16V plugin as the playback source to monitor with instead of FXbussXX)
    Select 'I2S0' as the P16V recording source drop down on the KX Mixer Master Page. The P16V device is both input and output btw.
    edit: access to AC97 based inputs need to be routed into the P16V device with the 'AC97 <> I2S' switch on the KX Mixer AC97 page.

    Otherwise - access to Line 2/ Mic 2 with KX ASIO (not ASIO4All as Johnny was posting - as it uses WaveHQ which still does not use the KX DSP and is of no consequence beyond the P16V PLUGIN ) or with WDM - the ProFx/SRC - for me - with a LDII - not an EX IO box - I can select Line2 / Mic 2 - Not part of ADC wich is for AC97 based inputs only (Card connectors - Aux, Analog CD, Line in, Mic, TAD etc..those things found on AC97 page of KX Mixer, as opposed to the inputs found in KX Mixer Ins and Outs page with the Default KX DSP config. Whos sliders are in the mixer becuase of PROLOG plugin)
    AC97 based inputs - I have access to from either:
    ADC - Normal or UDA output (I use the UDA, its a bit quiter) OR
    ProFX/SRC - AC97.2
    OR Prolog AC97

    Im wondering if theres issues with the EX ??
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2007

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