Recording Wave HQ 24/96 - required tweaks

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by ursamtl, Feb 16, 2007.

  1. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Thanks Johnny1982.:) A picture is worth more than a thousand words.

    Maddogg:

    Thanks for the reply man! I got the mic working, now, thanks to your post to add SRC and set to Mic 2/Line In 2. I tried that days ago, but it did't work. The thing that probably screwed me up is this:

    I would think that if I set a ProFX SRC to Mic 2/Line In 2, I would have to connect my mic (Dynamic BTW) to the Mic 2/Line In 2 1/4 in. connector on external I/O Drive. Well when I tried that, the mic didn't work! Turns out that trying it this time, I forgot to switch the Mic in the Mic 1/Line In 1 connector on the drive to the Mic 2 connector and, guess what, viola, it works! Chit man!!!!! It's little stuff like this that's confusing the heck out of me!!!

    The thing I want to do most is record using 24/96, thanks to ursamtl and Johnny1982 and this thread I can do that now using kX and the WDM driver. The thing with that is recording latency is kinda high (20ms, and it's noticable and irritating using a WDM driver), so I would like to have the option to use ASIO for recording with my Mic (using the external I/O HUB). That's why when Johnny mentioned that ASIO4all could make this happen, I was all ears and asked pertinent questions in this thread.

    I perceive that a vital part of the topic of this thread is not only how to record in 24/96 but also how to get get kX to work for recording in general. Nevertheless, if you all think my discussion in this thread is going off topic, I'll start a new thread if I have more inquires. But, please all of you, keep your eyes open. You all are such a great help!
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2007
  2. Russ

    Russ Well-Known Member

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    Hi :)
    I do not know much about it as a have only a 10k1 card (no p16v chip/WaveHQ).
     
  3. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Oh, good for you. You are somewhat spared some of the mental stress. LOL
     
  4. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    This is true - but I thought you had the basics of KX down cuz you've been around for a while So I thought KX ASIO was old hat for ya - So I was first concentrating on the things that were confusing for me with 24/96.
     
  5. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Maddogg:

    Man, I thought I had the basics down, too, but like I said, I tried loading a SRC and setting it to Mic2, but it didn't work! The thing is that I moved my mic to the Mic 2/Line In 2 connector on the I'O drive when I tried that. This time I just forgot to move my mic to the mic 2/Line In 2 connectore on the HUB. It's still in the Mic 1/Line In 1 connector, but the SRC is set to Mic 2/Line In 2, yet the Mic is working! That's confusing for me! Can you explain that?
     
  6. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    My best guess is a quirk with that card / IO box ..??

    In either case - my first instinct is to re-map all the inputs and write it in a table:
    KX Line 2 = EX Line 1

    etc... or what ever.

    edit: wait - are you still trying 24/96 with KX WDM - or KX ASIO?

    If using KX WDM and 24/96 - the input is selected NOT with Profx SRC - or ANYTHING in the DSP for that matter - but selected from the P16V Recording Source dropdown on the KX Mixer Master page.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2007
  7. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    Ok, here it goes...

    First: The Asio4all panel called under sonar le looks like this (only showing the one that interests you, the sb0350, were only the HQ in/out is enabled):

    http://johnnysjunk.no.sapo.pt/instruct/asio4all_sonar_le.JPG

    Then the driver panel in sonar le (0404 usb is absent in that pic):

    http://johnnysjunk.no.sapo.pt/instruct/driverpanel.JPG (note that output driver 8 in that pic is the frontal drive headphones output in the sb0350)

    I think any playback/recording timing master will do fine... not tested extensively:

    http://johnnysjunk.no.sapo.pt/instruct/sonar_le.JPG

    Finally, all my four cards coexisting peacefully with asio4all @ 96khz/24-bit, recording and playback are possible:

    http://johnnysjunk.no.sapo.pt/instruct/all96.JPG
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2007
  8. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    There's been a lot of good info in this thread and I'm encouraged by the results I'm getting. One thing still eludes me, however. I can't seem to monitor the input connected to my Aux 2 inputs in my Livedrive II in 24/96. The only way to hear it is to use the p16v DSP object, which as I understand it, reduces the monitor signal to 16/48. This isn't the end of the world since I amn getting 24/96 recordings, but it would be nice to get the full sound (and yes, I can hear a significant difference between 24/96 and 16/48). Maddogg6, your writings (excellent by the way) on here and on your 24/96 page seem to suggest that whatever's going into the p16v also goes through to the I2S output as patched through the 24/96 router. However, I cannot hear the Aux 2 input unless I turn the 10k2 ->I2S connection on in the 24/96 router. Is there in fact a way to hear the input in real time at 24/96 ? By the way, I do most of my listening and monitoring through headphones. I have a Creative 5400 5.1 speaker system but I usually have the headphones connected to the speaker's volume control box. I tried plugging my headphones into the Livedrive jack but in no way could I get any sound out of that, even with the 10k2 setup. Is there some sort of setting in kx for this that I'm missing?
     
  9. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    well - THE ONLY time you can hear 24/96 comming out of anything other than the 'logical front' (determined by the 'SWAP FRONT <> REAR' switch) outputs - is when:
    1) Multi-channel sound is played thru Wave HQ - like in a media player
    2) select the discreet output in a DAW application such as Sonar - but you need to turn on SOFTWARE MONITORING - in Sonar the switch is on the tracks labled ''INPUT ECHO'.
    Otherwise - monitoring with P16V thru the DSP - will have no affect on what is recorded.
     
  10. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    But I have my headphones connected to the logical front and I still don't hear the input. what you seem to be saying is that the only way to hear the 24/96 signal as 24/96 while it's being recorded is when using a DAW app with software monitoring turned on, am I right? In other words, there is no direct 24/96 path from the I2S input to the I2S output?
     
  11. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Very good question, ursamtl!

    And excerpt from the playback/recording guide as taking from the kX Project Official site:




    Now just what does it mean that we can playback 24/96 content with the Audigy 2 soundcards?

    Does it mean this is only possible when using digital speakers?

    I was under the understanding that even if I'm using my analog 5.1 speaker set, I could hear 24/96 playback from these speaker, if I playback 24/96 content (such as a ,wav file). Let's say that this is correct. If so, shouldnt I be able to monitor that 24/96 playback using my headphones? And if I use some DAW software such as SONAR, and I set SONAR up for a 24/96 project, why can't I get hardware monitoring with my headphones (using the external I/O Drive)? Why do I have to use software monitoring to monitor the project, Can I just connect my headphones to the Front speaker output and monitor my Mic (on I/O Drive) and the 24/96 content playing in my SONAR project?

    Man what's the tricky thing about the way kX allows us to playback 24/96 content?

    I sure hope we can get to the reality of being able to record/playback 24/96 content using the Audigy 2 cards and the kX Project Audio Driver.

    That's why I think your question is a very good and interesting question, ursamtl!

    Can anybody enlighten us?
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  12. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    I think I understand the problem - physical inputs are NOT routed in a way to be heard through outputs - until the input is processed by software (software mixing for instance) - then sent out thru WaveHQ.

    so..

    Yes 'Playback' - but not hardware monitor in 24/96.

    No there is not.

    edit: I will add that info to my guide too.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  13. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Not in media players - I assume this is becuase Wave HQ is multi-channel capable - but in a DAW - we CAN rout to the headphones and access all the 4 stereo outs of the P16V discreetly.
     
  14. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

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    Hi Maddogg:

    I did'nt know about your guide til I read ursamtl mention it, I went and read through it and bookmarked it, hehe.

    Some observations:

    You say in the guide:

    That's very bad news to me, very bad. My main reason for recording 24/96 with kX is to use the DSP effects and plugins for 24/96 recording and playback! But, there may be some good news. The 24/96 playback and recording gude says:

    Does this mean we can use the p16v in the DSP and use any of the available effects, but they will be processed in 16/48, but then resampled to 24/96, to be sent to DAW software like SONAR, where the WaveHQ is used, and where it all will be in 24/96? It sounds like that to me.

    I'm seriously endeavoring to understand this!
     
  15. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    Hey Thomas... yes - its perfectly OK (to me anyway) to 'HARDWARE MONITOR' via the DSP (P16V plugin) @ 16/48 - and record the DRY unprocessed sound that WaveHQ records. But AFAIK - you CAN NOT record KX DSP effects (which are 16(or 24??)/48 anyway) @ 24/96. - You might as well - record them at 16/48 with ASIO - then export tracks and import in to a 24/96 project - and MIXDOWN @ 24/96.
    Update: I started a thread on how to record KX DSP output @ 24/96 with Wave HQ. But here it is too:
    1) Rout KX Synth into Epilog/K2lt 'DIGITAL FRONT'
    2) Select '10K2 0' as the 'P16V Record Source'
    /end update

    keep in mind - the DSP - in context of WAVEHQ recording - is (almost) totally removed from the equation - and the P16V plugin (only output pins right?) ONLY gives us the ability to HARDWARE MONITOR waveHQ recording via the DSP - and add effects and what ever. (And NOT need to use Software monitoring btw- aka no need to use a tracks 'ECHO INPUT' in Sonar/DAW - and saves us from some latency problems)

    edit: I updated my guide to add/explain SW and HW monitoring.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  16. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    Ok, this makes it much clearer. Last night I was recording the Aux 2 from the Wave HQ using the Wavelab Lite that comes with the Z2 ZS. I cleared the DSP and heard nothing but could see the recording still going on in the Wavelab meters. It turned out fine and played back fine with nothing in the DSP. However, it'd be very nice to be able to hear the 24-bit input as it's recording. I haven't used Sonar in awhile. I wonder about Cubasis 4 that came with the card. Do you know if it's possible to monitor with it? I must also try Plogue Bidule. I've had this app for a couple of years now. It should theoretically allow one to take the Wave HQ input and record it while also monitoring through the Wave HQ output at the same time AND also apply any VST effects (or even DirectX with a wrapper). All this in a modular interface something like the kx DSP. I just thought of this a few minutes ago so I'm anxious to try it when I get home (at work on lunch right now).

    I have two related questions. As I mentioned in my first message last night, I can't seem to get any output from my Livedrive headphone output even with the DSP enabled. Is there anything I'm overlooking there?

    Also, as I wrote in another thread awhile back, a forum user on the Steve Hoffman audiophile forum speculated awhile back that his Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro is actually able to record and playback at 24-bit/192kHz using the standard Creative WDM driver. I have the ZS Platinum (not pro) and tried this myself. A frequency analysis of the recording seemed to show correlated audio data reaching way up into the ultrasonic area over 50kHz (such audio info does exist on some well recorded vinyl LPs played on a decent cartridge; whether we actually perceive it or not is a subject of scientific debate).

    Anyway, my position on this (and answers I got on this forum confirmed it) was that the ZS hardware is limited to 24/96 recording and playback except for 192kHz playback for DVD-Audio (using some sort of method that Creative refuses to divulge to Eugene, thus kx will never have DVD-Audio playback). However, when I recently pointed this out to the guy on the Hoffman forum, he brought up that both the ADC and DAC converters on the card actually support 192kHz. You can check this out at X-bit labs - Articles - Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro Sound Card: New Top Model Arrived! (page 6). For example, the DAC is a Texas Instruments PCM1804 and if you check their web site, it definitely specs up to 192kHz. The forum member's theory is that the WDM driver is somehow recording at this sampling rate when he uses Wavelab 5 to record. He claims to hear more detail when he compares this to 96kHz. It's certainly possible but I believe other chips on the card are probably limited to 24/96 and the WDM driver is simply upsampling the 24/96 data to 24/192 for the recording. I know I have a Yamaha CD/DVD player that upsamples regular CDs to 88.2 and 176.4kHz playback and I do hear a difference (surprisingly only at 2X). Anyone have any thoughts on this?

    Finally, to get back to the monitoring of the 24/96 HQ I2S input directly through the I2S output at 24/96, this would seem to be something fairly easy to implement in software with a simple on/off switch. What's the mechanism for suggesting this to Eugene? Other than the 192kHz issue I just described, I haven't really been active on this forum for a long time so I don't recall.

    Regards,
    Steve
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2007
  17. Maddogg6

    Maddogg6 Tail Razer

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    I don't know for sure, but would *expect* this to be possible.



    If you can ONLY select 1 wave HQ device in a software application - we cannot select WHICH of the 4 stereo outputs - and is 'fixed' as the logical FRONT output until the drop down selecting discreet outputs in the KX 24/96 Router gets repaired.

    So - to use a LDII headphones - you need an application like Sonar that allows us to use the P16V outputs discreetly - choose Wave HQ 7/8 - for this.

    Sorry - this would be way over my head. But my only notion is to look at 'Direct SPDIF Recording' - AFAIK - is what allows the P16V wavHQ input to 'follow' the source sample rate... ??? But you'll also need a host application capable of that source sample rate as well too.
    Now I thought this was because DVD-A uses encryption. And requires licensing (big $$$$) to 'legally' play back DVD-A. But I have been wrong before too.. ?? But because I don't really care about DVD-A - I prolly wont spend too much time learning about this seeming abandoned tech - until it becomes more of an issue for me personally. If I WERE to make this an important aspect, I would most likely NOT use CL soundcards anyway and go with a firewire based unit - or at least something designed for, and not 'cobbled' (as IMHO - 24/96 on A2's is) together for that format.


    Its not a simple switch AFAIK - it would require software running on the host PCs CPU to take WavHQ input and send to Wave HQ output.
    Thats my limited understanding anyway - but as always Im capable of being wrong.
     
  18. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    Just to follow up, when I got home tonight, I set up a Plogue Bidule layout with a Directsound Wave HQ input connected directly to a Directsound Wave HQ output as well as a 2-channel wave recorder set to 24-bits and 96kHz. I then cleared the kx DSP and disconnected the 10k2 to I2S output. It worked flawlessly and sounded tremendous. So, Maddogg, you're right. It's just a matter of having software that routes the input directly to the output. When I have time, I'll explore the other software I have kicking around such as Cubasis 4, Cool Edit Pro, etc.

    Thanks for your help,
    Steve.
     
  19. JGSF

    JGSF New Member

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    It would be nice if a little software tweak could be added to kX to allow that without using any external software... ;) btw, i made some more testing, and I confirm that using asio4all on top of waveHQ will allow to record multitrack in sync, if you have several cards. Nice... low-cost 96khz/24-bit multi-track recording... \o/
     
  20. ursamtl

    ursamtl Montrealer

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    Yes, that's what I meant in my earlier message. I can't see if being very complicated to simply create a connection in software to route the I2S input directly to the I2S output. I have to try reinstalling ASIO4ALL because for some reason I'm getting a lot of constant distortion with it running on top of kx. It ran perfectly over top of the Creative drivers.
     

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