Sound of justice and freedom

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Usa_anti_war, Jul 24, 2006.

  1. OldBuzzard

    OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek

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    Maddogg66:


    Just to put things in perspective. In the Battle for Iwo Jima we lost 6,821 Killed 19,217 Wounded.

    On D-DAY: 1465 dead, 3184 wounded

    For the whole battle for Normandy: Twenty-seven war cemeteries hold the remains of over 110,000 dead from both sides: 77,866 German, 9386 American, 17,769 British, 5002 Canadian and 650 Poles.
    Between 15,000 and 20,000 French civilians were killed, mainly as a result of Allied bombing. Thousands more fled their homes to escape the fighting.

    In just one TRAINING EXCERSIZE for D-Day (Operation Tiger) we lost 749 men.

    So, your post about an 'impressive #' is correct, altho not for the reason you think...it's quite impressive that the number is so LOW.

    Also note the number of French CIVILIANS killed...care to ask a few Fernch citizens if they think that those 'collateral deaths' were worth it, or do you think that they would rather have those people (and the Nazis) back?

    All this touchy feelie', lets all sit and sing songs, and get along is a FANTESY WORLD that will never happen. Whether you like it of not, there are 'bad people' out there and they WON'T sit and sing songs and 'get along', and the only 'touchy feelie' they are intetested in is 'touching your throat with a knife and feeling you die'.

    Your world seems to be one where the wolves and the sheep sit down and decide 'What's for dinner'. In my world the sheep are WELL ARMED.
     
  2. TheBlackCat

    TheBlackCat New Member

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    Anything larger than 0 is high if you don't think we should be in Iraq. Considering most of the deaths occured after the war was declared "over", people might have a right to be a bit upset. I should probably also point out we were directly attacked by Japan, our allies were directly under attack by Germany and Italy at the time, and Germany and Italy declared war on us, not the the other way around. Iraq hadn't fought anybody, ally or enemy, in a decade, and there is now no clue it would have the means or will to any time soon. That is not to say it wouldn't if it had the capability, but there is no indication it did.


    As I recall, the French resistance was fighting the Germans. The Iraqi resistance is fighting us. That might indicate a slightly different feeling between the two groups.

    That argument would be a lot more convincing if we actually eliminated an enemy. All we have done is take one enemy that hates us but didn't have the means, at that time, to fight us and was hated by its neighbors and replace it with an enemy that does have the means to fight us and is supported by its neighbors (at least quite a few of the people, generally not the government openly at any rate), while at the same time destroying any last shred of credibility we might have had in the world community and making it much more difficult to make moves against countries that do have the means to harm us or will very soon. Fighting is an unfortunate fact of life, but people have a right to be upset if we are as bad or worse off than we were before we went in.
     
  3. Iroth

    Iroth New Member

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    Freedom isn't free. If you're one of the fortunate one's in this country who make millions each year then the price you have to pay for the luxury and priviledge (not right) of making that money is taxes. There comes a point where people like that get more money than they will ever need, let alone spend. I'll agree that it's not a perfect tax system but when they cut the estate tax, which only affects estates larger than 2 million dollars - or roughly 2 percent of the population so they can do away with programs that help single mothers to not only feed, clothe, and educate their kids but also allows them to educate themselves and allow themselves to get off those programs and contribute more to society it bothers me more than a little. If you didn't earn the money, but inherited it, it's still income. But hey, if you don't like it you can always move some place else.....
     
  4. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    Wellfare is sucking this nation dry. Worst Idea ever concieved by man to still be in place today. The rich however contribute back to the nations economy without taxes. Like the stock market, investing, and all other sorts of things.
     
  5. Pompey

    Pompey New Member

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    Welfare is not bleeding the US dry, its in an even worse state than New Zealand’s so called 'welfare state'. The main component of a welfare state and the thing that takes up the largest percentage of most developed countries revenue is Healthcare - which is something the private sector largely handles in America. How can you even make that claim? The thing that 'bleeds America dry' is its military spending. And I suppose the massive deficit America is facing (once again) is because of the socialists? Lets take a look:
    Surplus under Clinton (billions)
    1998 $69.2
    1999 $122.7
    2000 $230

    Now, lets look at the deficit under bush (billions):
    2004 $413
    2003 $378
    2005 $318
    2006 $296 (projected)

    But i suppose it has nothing to do with the tax cuts and emphasis on military spending...its all the lefts fault.:duh:
    Im not saying america has to follow a socialist path, but at least ballance the books for christ sake.
     
  6. Iroth

    Iroth New Member

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    The US government gives out more in corporate welfare then they do to it's citizens. Then those corporations take that money and put into off-shore accounts to avoid paying taxes. Some of those corporations even cook their books to inflate stock prices which actually makes them worth nothing. A lot of others outsorce their lowest paying/lowest skilled jobs to countries where they can get away with paying those people pennies on the dollar. Does that help the U.S.? Well, I live here and it doesn't help me. It might inflate their stock prices since operating costs are down but since at the time of writing this I live almost paycheck to paycheck I can't buy any of those stocks - not that I'd want to, having morals and ethics and all.

    I'm not saying the U.S. needs to be completely socialist either, but a healthy balance of socialism and capatalism benefits the majority of the citizens - mostly those who need it. How can the poor do all the work in this country if they aren't fed?
     
  7. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    I know for a fact there would be no debt without wellfare. Our current deficit can be attributed to things other than wellfare, but that still does mot mean that Wellfare is not sucksuckign the US dry. It doesn't contribute in anway back to the US or its interests so its like throwing away money.

    As for millitary spending, most our major technological break throughs have been created in times of war. The US's role in the world (not self proclaimed but dictaded by the actions of other countries) has forced us to spend billions of $ to stop WW3 from happening because as far as Europe is concerned they will let countries destroy themselves until they actually attack them then they will retaliate. By that time it is usually too late and they need to be saved by the US.



    Of course everyone loves us when we are saving them but curse us as soon as we leave. If the world were to go unchecked by the US or anyone for that matter (though the US is the only one to do it) we would have destroyed ourselves long ago.
     
  8. Al_Vampyre

    Al_Vampyre Well-Known Member

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    What a completely ironic thing to say! You have no problem with spending billions of dollars and wasting thousands of lives invading a country to rescue the poor disadvantaged people from a dictator who was vehemently anti US but you grudge taking care of your own poor and disadvantaged people?

    Tell you what, why don't you just stop all US humanitarian aid, that would save you a few quid which you could then use to increase the number of people you can deploy in countries that aren't yours, have done nothing to you, but just might in the future because you don't like them...oh and they have oil. Don't bother sending troops into any of the warring African nations because, although they are treated as badly as the people in Iraq were, they don't have anything to make it worth your while.

    It's called society, those are the rights that you're claiming to protect in Iraq for the people of Iraq. Truth, democracy, and the American way, but if you're sick and can't afford treatment we're going to let you die because there's nothing in it for us...

    Sorry about the rant but comments like that make me furious...
     
  9. Yousaif

    Yousaif Allergic to WiFi

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    I want to address the last part of the above quoted text. I have no trouble taking care of our poor and disadvantaged people. Its the people that refuse to even try to get themselves out of the situation that nine times out of ten they put themselves into in the first place that I begrudge supporting.

    Examples include the mother that has several kids by different fathers that just keeps sleeping with as many men as she can in order to have more children so she doesn't have to get herself off of welfare and work for a living.

    Another example is the drug addict that receives disability payments from Social Security- often they applied for the disability payments while receiving some form of addiction treatment- then they take the payments they receive after rehab and turn around and get right back on the drugs again.

    Its really the cycle of dependency on "free money" that gets to me more than anything else when it comes to welfare.
     
  10. Al_Vampyre

    Al_Vampyre Well-Known Member

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    Ahhh, thats different though, what you're talking about is abuse of the welfare system, not the welfare system itself...
     
  11. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    AHLTA (noun)
    is a cradel to grave...
    that means...
    accession > active duty > retirement > VA...
    it is already intergrated at several and will be at all sites.
    Navy - Marine - Army - USAF and all reserve entities.

    and yes, for my work I am admirably compensated...
    but I am a combat veteran..
    I have served on all platforms..
    Shore > Air > Sea > Submarine
    I have served and have family serving in IRAQ and Afghanistan...
    I think I can say with some validity that in the all volunteer military of the U.S. the only problem I have is that service members are looking for something that it cannot provide....they have to find that themselves regardless of the circumstances good or bad...
    In life...you take risks and make choices...
    and ultimately live with the consequences...
     
  12. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    OUr wellfare system is flawed as 75% of the people on it (from what I have seen in around my city) are complete wastes of life bleeding the system. As far as single mothers go my sister in law was throw on the street with her kid at 18, she's doin allright for herself now and did what she had to, to get by. Wellfare is not needed. Help is needed though for the mentaly and phiscally handicapped where they are prevented from getting a job.


    Also did you read what I wrote on millitary spending? because you did not quote it.
     
  13. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    Also in all truth about the millitary service, every single able male at 18 should at least spend one year in the millitary to know what they are bashing and where their money goes to. People need to open their f*ckin eyes and experience it before they judge based on what someone else tells them is true.


    Again what I elieve is, if you haven't experienced yourself (I don't give a sh*t if the dali lama told you in person what is happening) Your opinion on the matter is void.
     
  14. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    countries have tried to maintain a fascist / socialist state but they have failed...
     
  15. TheBlackCat

    TheBlackCat New Member

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    Your "/" there makes no sense. Fascism and socialism are polar opposites, the former being a business-oriented reactionary ultra-conservative political system and the latter being a radical ultra-liberal economic system (when you talk about pure socialism). They have basically nothing in common. There are, of course, a number of countries, including Canada and most of western Europe, that have a some significant degree of socialism (although certainly a very large capitalist aspect as well) and do quite well with it. They tend to have a much higher average standard of living overall than we do, but whether this is a cause or an effect is not clear.
     
  16. TheBlackCat

    TheBlackCat New Member

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    You said you haven't even left for basic yet, not to mention started active duty. Perhaps you should follow your own advice and get some actual experience before telling everyone else to.

    Have you ever been on welfare, or been unemployed? If not perhaps you should also follow your own advice and not make comments about that until you have experienced it.

    Is that so? Certainly there are a few, but I would certainly not say "most", or half, or probably even 1/10th. Besides miltiary technology itself, name all the technological advances you can think of that were made in time of war. I bet I can think of 10 times that number that were made during peace time, and probably 10 times that many military technologies that were developed during peacetime as well.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2006
  17. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    either / or nothing more than that. polar opposites I accept but illustrating by either extreme they are unssuccessful.
    I am old enough to remember Mussolini and Hitler and there upon I base my statement..
    Ironic isnt it...and they had a common foe, therefore shared similiarities..
     
  18. TheBlackCat

    TheBlackCat New Member

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    They did? Both of those countries were decidedly fascist, not socialist, and expansionist, not defensive. They become allies in order to better take over Europe, not for common defense. The socialists at the time, i.e. the Soviet Union, many members of the French Resistance, and the Maoists in China, were strongly against the Fascist countries and fought actively against them. Also, not all fascists helped with WWII. Franco kept Spain neutral despite getting significant aid from Nazi Germany.
     
  19. Al_Vampyre

    Al_Vampyre Well-Known Member

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    Actually I have no problem with conscription, I would encourage it as well, there are a lot of good life skills that can learnt in a military environment and it definitely develops leadership skills.

    @SFOSOK - I did read your bit about military spending but didn't think it was particularly quotable, because to my mind the idea of large scale military spending is assinine when there are issues at home (the Katarina cleanup for example).

    You can at very best only believe that the US is preventing WW3 by its action in the Middle East, its an opinion thats all, and I happen to believe its wrong, but you have a right to that opinion. If you choose to ignore world opinion and do what you want anyway then you can't expect us to thank you, we didn't ask you to take on the mantle of 'world protector' and most of of don't belive thats what you're doing, all most of us can see is protection of US interests rather than world interests...
     
  20. Pompey

    Pompey New Member

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    New Zealand pioneered the welfare state, and we pioneered its demolition. We out protected Europe and the government intervened in virtually every aspect of the economy. It simply didn’t work. It didn’t fail because of the investment in social programs, but because of the level of government intervention on the economy and excessive regulations. Many countries have a mix of socialism and capitalism (often called the Scandinavian model) and are not on the verge of collapse.

    Not everyone on welfare is a leach, as someone pointed out you are referring to welfare abusers. I dont know what the system is in America but in NZ people on the unemployment benefit are required to active seek a job. They are forced to go to interviews, attend training and stuff and if they refuse to go or try to make sure they dont get the job they have their payments stopped. My mum was on it partially (I think my dads child support was deducted from her payments) when she got divorced for a couple of months until she got a new job. For most people, welfare is a safety net, not a hammock.
    Welfare goes far beyond just giving the unemployed a cheque though; in fact that’s a small part of it. Welfare encompasses things like education and health.
     

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