The debate religion thread!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Vikingod, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    There is no knowledge available? I'm sorry, but there is lots of information and knowledge available, it's just not the kind of knowledge you're willing to accept because it can't be proven in a way you find satisfactory. Yet I'm sure you're willing to just accept a few things because there are no explanations for them. For example, why are you alive, when the atoms you are made out of, are not.
     
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  2. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    There are explanations for that... An atom is the building block for life, and for everything else so well, let me put it this way.

    Most buildings are made of bricks and together, they form something called a house for example. Individually, they are nothing but together, they offer shelter, insulation, structural support, etc. Same with atoms, alone they are nothing but when put together correctly, they use energy for mouvement, reproduction, etc, which is defined as life ;)
     
  3. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    That still doesn't explain the difference between a chair and a human. Both are made of atoms, both are only their unique thing because of their exact structure/buildup, but one is alive and one isn't. And science can't really explain why, and they can't make a life on their own, they can only clone something that's already living. If it was simply a matter of just putting atoms in the right order, you'd think they would have done that already.
     
  4. Mousey

    Mousey HH's Official Rodent

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    Fair enough you've got us there, but religion explains this how...
     
  5. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    Consider the age of all the major religions, then consider what they say, and WHY they say it.


    God's word was given to man in a way he could understand relative to the time and surroundings. Therefore scripture was made to be understood by man, and at the same time, gave us just enough information, as much as we needed to know. This scripture was written how many thousands of years ago? Look at the choice of words, man was made from the DUST of the ground. What's the significance? Ground/dirt is not typically seen as a living substance, especially in an area of the world that is mostly desert. Notice that dust is chosen instead of dirt, because dust is finer than dirt, in fact, you might say that dust is probably the smallest thing people had a word for during that time. So God tells us in the Torah that he made man out of very fine specks that were not alive, and breathed life into us. Seems as explained as it could get given the time and place of the people.
     
  6. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    I love how this guy gets all picky with science and how we can't trust it but believes some invisible man in the sky made us from dust. Substitute "Unicorn" or "Goblin" for God and you have the same level of ridiculousness. No proof, just imagination.
     
  7. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Ignore Mousey, you haven't got me ;)

    It is ALL about making the atoms spaced out correctly... If I take another example, steel is used in many items but only under certain circumstances will it constitute a car or a PC case... Otherwise, no. If an atom is placed in such a way to make life, it'll make life. If it's placed differently, then it won't.

    Atoms are building blocks and you can make MANY things with building blocks.

    Now why can't we make life? Well have you seen at atom? It's too small for us to use, far too small. We have actually "never" seen one before, even though we know they exist, so how do you expect us, with our horrible 21st century technology to use something we can't see?

    ;) You see, there is always an answer to everything.
     
  8. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    Thanks for the informative answer.
     
  9. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    Did I ever say you couldn't trust science? As a history major I remained faithless almost all of my life, studying about different cultures, faiths, and how they died out for various reasons. Every culture in ancient times had their own Gods, and their God died with them. But the God of the Jews didn't, in fact, it spread over the world. The Christians, the Muslims, same God. You asked for someone who had been wondering and searching faith their whole lives to post, and here I am. If there's one thing I've noticed, it's that whatever God wants to happen, happens. And he seems to be set on making sure the world knows of Him, as much as we try and erase him.

    Science is an amazing thing, it explains so much and has improved our lives in ways never even thought possible. But it is NOT the answer to everything, in the last 2,000 years, how much has things of "science" changed, the so called "facts." When they used to treat male STDs with mercury and ended up poisening them to death. Or how about the flatness of the world? Earth the center of the universe? How about something more recent, AIDS being a gay only disease, we can go at this all night. Science requires more faith than anything else because it can and does change every moment. You have to put faith in your doctor that this new treatment will actually help you rather than hurt you. That this new product will actually do as it claims.

    No one is saying that you have to believe in God, or that science doesn't matter and it should all depend on God. Personally I think those parents who don't take their kids to the hospital because they think God will heal them are out of their fracking mind. God's who you turn to when there's nowhere else to go, when there's no science that can help you, heal you, complete you.

    I used to pity people who believed in God, believed they were mindless trolls, pawns of their respective church. That they needed something to believe in because they couldn't handle normal living, or that they weren't educated enough to understand science. Or maybe they were just raised in a religious home and now they've been brainwashed so bad they just can't help themselves. But that isn't the case, at least not for me. I don't belong to any church, I'm a UCLA student, and my entire family is faithless.

    I don't know where you're getting this no proof ridiculous idea from. I think denying any kind of higher power is ludicrous. So much faith in the world, and there's no God behind it? People are ingrained with a pretty standard set of moral codes, and there's no God behind it? We haven't destroyed ourselves yet? And there's no God behind it? lol

    The same way we use microwaves and ray guns silly :D
     
  10. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    Did you not find it even coincidental that Christianity takes so many things from previous religions and rolled it all into one? Virgin birth, messiah, afterlife, resurrection, etc it's all been done before Christianity or Judaism existed. The fact that one religion became more popular does not make it any more factual than the hundreds that died out before it. You should know this if you've studied enough ancient cultures.

    Unlike religion, which is based on archaic scriptures which never evolve, scientific knowledge is an ongoing process.

    Scientific method refers to the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation, experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

    There are hundreds of thousands of drugs and medical advances which have resulted because of the scientific method. How many diseases has God eradicated? None, zip, zilch, nada...zero.

    Fear of death will make people turn to anything that can save them, whether it's a scam artist selling miracle cures or the church. It won't matter whether you turn to Allah, Yahweh, God, Zeus or Thor the result will always be the same. You will get from it what you want. This may be comforting to people but it does not make it real.

    Which God? Your God? My God? If there's one real God and all the rest are fake than why doesn't He come forward and reveal himself to all of humanity in ways that are undeniable? So far the best all the Gods have been able to do is some old writings. Wow...mighty impressive for the creator of the Universe :rolleyes:

    There is so much that has been previously credited to God that we now know has a scientific explanation, this puts egg in the faces of Church leaders constantly and it will always be this way.

    We do not get our morals from God (thankfully!), there is tons of information on how we evolved our social skills. Go find it yourself with Google.

    If God is the explanation for things of which there is no evidence whatsoever then how can I argue with this? Humanity isn't extinct...God did it! We don't rape and murder everyone...God did it! This is simply just lazy and unimaginative thinking.
     
  11. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    Christianity does borrow a lot from all sorts of religions, but the whole virgin birth idea comes from Judaism, spoken from the prophet Isaiah, and the Jews weren't really hip to incorporating stuff from other Gods into their religion. Actually I think they put people to death for that kind of stuff o_O

    Modern Christianity still hasn't accepted its own roots, they worship on the wrong scriptural day, Christmas is a joke, as well as Easter, yadda yadda. But cultures in general are like that.

    Religion is based on scripture as well as experiences, personal experiences.

    We all know how science works, but as I said, science requires more faith, because it always changing, it's much harder to trust your friend who keeps changing his opinions, beliefs, and habits as opposed to the one that stays constant and true.

    The whole fear of death thing? Hm, I don't really fear death. Christians put the most emphasis on the afterlife, Jews not so much, we don't even have hell in our scripture, so we're not exactly afraid of burning for all eternity.

    Out of curiosity, which religious scriptures or books have you actually read? I'm not talking commentaries about scripture, but the actual scriptures themselves.

    And evolving social skills doesn't explain anything about a base set of morals. Why do 2 completely different cultures in different parts of the world act similarly? When one is white and the other is black. If their lives are so different that they evolved into different colors, why would their morals be similar?

    And why doesn't God come forward? Simple. Because he doesn't have to, he doesn't owe us anything, we owe him. Would you rather give your son the tools to find out what's right and wrong for himself, or would you step forward at every step and go VOILA! BEHOLD I AM THE GREAT OMEGA RED AND YOU ARE WRONG! Meh.

    And he clearly showed himself to the Jews of old, otherwise, how to you explain them? Their struggle through thousands of years of persecution, in belief of a God who only seems to put them trials, it makes absolutely no sense. Yet they went without a country for 2,000 years and remained a people, name me any other culture that's done that.
     
  12. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    I won't answer the rest since it's aimed at Omega but here are the answers to these two comments.

    Firstly, science requires 0 faith. If you are using faith to believe in science, then you don't know science at all. Anything that exists in science, once proven to be a LAW (gravity for example), it will never change and that's a fact that can be PROVEN by books, calculations, etc.

    Things that do change are the THEORIES that, by definition, are not laws and thus, aren't sure to be right (though a scientific theory is not understood the same way as a "theory" in everyday english. Basically, a theory is the most PROBABLE scenario out of many).

    Anyways, can you give me an example of something in science, a major law or theory that has recently changed?

    As for the moral thingy, did you know that over 50% of your personality is decided during the genetic makeup? I mean, before you are even born, 50% of who YOU are is already done so your parents just had the other 50% to work on? Interesting no, something as complex as personality is decided by numbers and shapes and sizes (DNA and proteins and such).

    Same goes with morals, they are printed IN our genetic makeup. A few years ago, in some Asian country (Cambodia or something), a young teen was found in the woods where she had been living ever since she had been abandoned by her parents... She didn't speak any human language, didn't understand and hadn't seen a human in her life (or religion) but she didn't act animal like around other people. In fact, she was quite "humane" so even a person without ANY interraction with people for over 13-14 years had the basic morales (don't kill others, not the crap like don't eat pigs or don't masturbate or whatnot).

    My point is, you missunderstand just how much we actually do know about the world around us.
     
  13. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    That was my point, that morals are genetic, and that seems a little out there for me to go with it being ingrained in us due to social interactions.

    You want a law that has recently been changed or replaced? Well it depends on your scope of recent, let's go with Newton's LAW of Universal Gravitation that was found to not be accurate for predicting the orbit of Mercury, it is flawed, therefore not a fact, and has been superseded by Einstein's THEORY of Relativity. But Newton's Law is still kept around because the calculations are easier if indeed flawed. So there's that.

    I'm just saying I think it's pretty interesting that science changes constantly, yet no one thinks there's any faith behind it. Personally I have to give a lot of my faith when it comes time to switching asthma medications. If the medication doesn't work, then I don't breathe, so I might not survive the switch. My best friend (former member of DH) is putting a lot of faith in his new doctors. If they don't treat him correctly, he will be losing his colon in the near future. And at 22 years old, he's got a long time to live without a butthole >.<
     
  14. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Genetic doesn't mean God. It means evolution but then again, you probably don't believe in evolution (and that's another topic).

    As for Newton's gravity, it's not wrong at all. If it where wrong, nuclear phsyics, our understanding of time in space and MUCH more wouldn't function and well.... they do. Newton did his experiments on Earth and didn't take into account the differences that occure in space, which Einstein did. Combined, the results are perfect (we think) though these RESULTS might change.

    The LAWS or THEORIES in both cases, didn't. Text books weren't rewritten.

    As for faith in science, you're putting faith in the PEOPLE who made the medicine. Not the medicine itself because you can't really see the chemical or organic reactions that help your asthma. You're hoping the PEOPLE behind it, who engineered the product made something that worked.

    Same way that you don't DOUBT gravity every morning, or DOUBT that the sun is a nuclear fission reactor making heat. You accept them because they are right and these are scientific properties. Doctors and such are BASED of science but they are applying it how they want, not the same.

    If you mix those two notions, then yes what you say is true... but wrong :D
     
  15. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    If you were to look at my old posts, you'd find that I do believe in evolution. You can't deny evolution exists when we see it in rapid succession in diseases and viruses, we have proof of it working. That doesn't mean I think we happened exactly the same way. I'll come back and post later, I kinda gotta jam.
     
  16. Esaz666

    Esaz666 BeardHeaven

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    It is a problem, scripture.It is mainly out of date and has different meanings
    to us than it did to someone, say 1000 to 2000 years ago, because language changes its meanings. Again just because scripture may or may not be relevant to our current life, it does not mean that there is no spiritual force within the universe.

    We as people should trust our own experiences over all other things, written or communicated.If you cannot trust yourself , you fall into the trap of misinformation and leave yourself open to be fooled, try it for a while, keep the tv off, stop reading the bad news in the papers, experience nature, stop and be yourself, not what your told you are.

    We are continually bombarded by information, nearly all of it meaningless.
    There are things you can discover about the nature of life, if you give yourself time, there is potential for growth, what you can discover through your own efforts is authentic, not borrowed from elsewhere.
     
  17. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    That's like saying you believe that food feeds animals but not us? Or something along those lines...

    If evolution works for bacteria (a virus is not technically a living organism if ever), it works for us all...
     
  18. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    This may me lol

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    I love circular debates :D
     
  20. Mousey

    Mousey HH's Official Rodent

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    The bible is god's word written by man. Effectively meaning it's the author's word.
     

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