The debate religion thread!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by Vikingod, Jan 30, 2008.

  1. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    No it's not, that's like saying if penicillin works for me, it should work for her, but it doesn't always work that way.
     
  2. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    Yeah I hate those people. haha
     
  3. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    That's wrong, it always works... Chemically and biologically, the effects are happening but how the symptoms are healed is different.

    You fail to understand this notion somehow... Okay, best example I have. You're saying something along these lines: "Gravity works in the US but not in Europe".

    It's wrong ;)
     
  4. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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  5. Snow Eater

    Snow Eater New Member

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    Your example is bad.
    What you're saying is that since gravity works everywhere, that must mean it explains everything.
    By the logic you are presenting, gravity will explain all forces and movement.
    That is simply not true as other forces will explain many movements that gravity is essentially a non-factor in even though gravity is always working.
     
  6. Mousey

    Mousey HH's Official Rodent

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    BUUUUT This is turning from a religion debate to a physics debate so back on track? Let's discuss the bible for instance. I find it quite entertaining to grill christians that stop me when i'm out doing parkour about the bible.
    If you refer to my earlier post, i state;
    And as i'm sure we're aware, the author would have been a human, a homo sapien, one of us. One of us that makes mistakes and is susceptible to greed. It's not like god decided to write it and give one to adam in the garden of eden.

    To be perfectly honest i don't have a problem with religions other than christianity, the reason i have beefs with christianity is because there are very apparent holes they refuse to acknowledge and i often have their beliefs thrown in my face and have them all but drag me to the church. That's never happened with another religion, at least Jahova's Witnesses ask if i want to hear about their religion! (And the women they send are hawt. lol)
    I do in fact know a girl that's a Jahova's Witness from school, she's a very pleasent and lovely girl. Christian girls i know on the other hand are often bitchy and unpleasent. But perhaps that's just puberty.
     
  7. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    No that's now what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, gravity is a Law that is always working, correct? I never said it explains all mouvement or something along those lines. I just said it works wherever you are on our planet (and more).

    Do you float off into space when you visit Austrailia or India? No, you stick to the Earth and that is all down to gravity. It's a LAW that's applied to everyone and while it doesn't explain why cars move (and I never said it did or any other mouvement), it explains why you stick to this Earth even though it's roatating at several thousand kilomters per hour no?
     
  8. Snow Eater

    Snow Eater New Member

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    I'm unsure why you're directing this to me.
    Is there something you'd like me to respond to here?
     
  9. Snow Eater

    Snow Eater New Member

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    Sure.

    Gravity is a force, forces explain movement.
    You are drawing an analogy between evolution "always working" and gravity "always working".

    I'm pointing out that even though gravity is "always working" there are some things that can be described by gravity, but other things that gravity is not enough to explain.

    If we then move back to the evolution question, you should be able to see the point that even though evolution may be able to explain some things, the fact that evolution happens is no reason to assume without questioning that it must therefore explain everything.
     
  10. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Well tell me, what CAN'T be explained by gravity? I'm curious to know what mouvement we do (and that is not down to muscle mouvement, or anything about physical properties of objects) is not explainable? Because that would be something new...

    Evolution sits in the same bag of science as The origins of the Planet / Moon / Dinosaurs / etc. Hell it has the same dilemma as the Pangea theory. If people can't see it (and all these questions and theories can only be TRUELY ANSWERED for the spectical and non specilist in the domain by going back in time... which we can't), then they can only stay a theory and never be verified!

    How do we knnow the Grand Canyon was carved out by a river... We didn't see the process happen so how can it be true? Sure, we say erosion of miniscule amounts happen in ONE lifetime but maybe thats not true over ten thousand lifetimes (just replace Grand Canyon with Evolution).
     
  11. Snow Eater

    Snow Eater New Member

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    I'm not referring to anything new or unexplainable.
    We are currently aware of 4 fundamental forces. Gravity is only one of them.
    There are strong, electromagnetic and weak also.

    Even though gravity "always works", much of what we observe in the universe can't be explained by gravity alone, even though our knowledge of these other forces was non-existant in the past.

    So, to take us back to the where I pointed out the flaw in your logic, simply asking when evolution does NOT work is no proof that evolution actually explains everything. Clearly we MUST be missing something because Evolution can only explain speciation and can't offer an explanation of the actual origin of life.
     
  12. Sandok

    Sandok New Member

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    Alluding to the infamous missing links are we? The tree of life is not completed, that I agree with you but a small gap in the branches here and there doesn't mean we can't see the general shape of the tree.

    Don't forget, the only proof of Darwin's theory is technically, fossils (please tell me you believe in fossils at least... and carbon dating) that erode, dissapear and such. Even though, since the theory of evolution came out, those "holes" have been filled to great extent but it seems that unless it's a 100% explained, nobody will be happy and again, I allude to other "facts" that aren't truely explainable without going back into the past but today, they are (Pangea comes to mind).

    And as for gravity not explaining everything, well we have barely begun exploring the true power of outerspace. Dark matter, dark energy, multiverse, etc, all these things are just being discovered, give it time.

    But one thing you are saying that is fundamentally wrong is that, with our lovely gravity example, you're acting as if I'm saying that every mouvement in our solar system / galaxy / universe is being pinned on gravity... It isn't. The only things being pinned on gravity are well, because of gravity.

    As for evolution, it doesn't explain everything but whatever we say is because of evolution (for example, monkeys to chimps to homo-sapiens to us (homo sapien sapiens)) is because of evolution.

    Actually, do you believe in the fact that the Earth is only 5000 years old or do you agree that it's billions of years old?
     
  13. SeraphicSorcerer

    SeraphicSorcerer Well-Known Member

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    I've always had a problem with that line of thinking, if God picks and chooses who and what he will grant then that makers god an imperfect being. For if God loves everyone he must grant everyones desires, So I would say if a "god does" exist, he grants nothing and lets people learn on their own.

    I also agree with Omega Red's 3 things that annoy the piss out of me about religion, it's totally true, and Their last argument is always faith, well Faith gets people killed, everyday. you don't even have t go to Iraq and see those fanatics. You remember that cult that killed themselves over that comet that they thought would ascend them? So they all killed themselves... Back in like 2000, in California.
     
  14. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    ye of little faith.
     
  15. TDurden1937

    TDurden1937 New Member

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    The most remarkable aspect of this “debate” I can identify . . . .

    At this link Theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia you may find the definition of “Theory.


    ”In science a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. For the scientist, "theory" is not in any way an antonym of "fact".


    I find the misuse of the concept of theory astonishing in this debate. It illustrates the depth in which most of this “debate” is conducted.


    Certainly no one in their right mind would follow this thread and expect to find anything that might clarify the issues surrounding “science” vs. “religion.”


    To have a productive debate the participants have to have at least a moderately complete understanding of the material they are debating.


    Statement such as “Science has proven the Theory of Evolution beyond a doubt,” or “Since the Bible is the inspired word of God and so has to be true,” shows that anyone seeking to increase his/her understanding of the issues should look elsewhere immediately.


    For those of you deeply involved in this debate I suggest you stop now and continue studying so that you become accurately acquainted with the subject matter you are addressing. As of now you are only doing harm to the assertions you are trying to support.


    Debate is at it's best when those who debate are open to at least considering the opposite view. Clearly, the rule here is a struggle over who is right or wrong. Not what is the most reasonable and best supported proposition.


    I must point out that Jesus makes it clear in his ministry, that there are those, many, many of those who do not, and will not acknowledge the truth, or even attempt to consider what is the truth because they love ignorance or darkness. Because in darkness, they can hide there evil and selfish ways.


    BTW – Christianity is not based on faith, or the blind belief in myth. A careful examination of the New Testament will show many, many testable criteria which support that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died to absolve you of your sins, and on the third day after his death arose and showed himself to thousands of witnesses.


    Of course, those of you with closed ears will not hear as Christ anticipated many time in his ministry. While those who can and do hear will believe.


    For those of you who feel vilified, shamed, or dirty because Christ said that you are a sinner because you are a homosexual, have casual sex, are drunks (drinking by the way is not a sin, but drunkenness is) be assured that your sins are no more severe than my sins of pridefulness, envy, or love of money.


    All flames are sent to /dev/null . . . and due to the lameness of this thread I will not bother to visit here again. I also suggest any other serious seeker, be he/she scientific or religious oriented go elsewhere.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2008
  16. OmegaRED

    OmegaRED Relapsed Gamer

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    We've gone over this before. There isn't even proof that Jesus existed and let us say he did, there's no proof he was the son of God which means he's just a "dude" with an opinion - like you or I.

    All you've come armed with to this thread is circular reasoning. There isn't anything you've got to say which doesn't come back to The Bible. I suggest you come back when you've got something substantial.


    Oh here we go...

    It's not like you actually contributed anything to this thread. Your post was the equivalent of Jehova witnesses at my door :rolleyes:
     
  17. chillbilly

    chillbilly New Member

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    Regardless of which view is taken, man's reason can only take him so far.
    There are untapped realities that are within our domain and man's will must be utilized to see them.
    The problem for most men is that they are trapped by routine and dogma.
     
  18. SeraphicSorcerer

    SeraphicSorcerer Well-Known Member

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    All I've got to say, is, let's say I'm flat our wrong. That god exists in every fuggin way the bible says. That Jesus is his son. Blah Blah. And I get to the golden gates of heaven. Where I am to be judged. If Peter says, hey dickhead, why didn't you acknowledge your one true lord, and I say "Because I had no evidence, no miracles happened in front of me to actually lead me to believe it was god, for that I am sorry, obviously I was wrong." and then he's like, you go to hell. I'd be like F U, The devil sounds like a cooler guy to hang out with anyhow. And here's why I say this.

    If at my core I am a good person, with well lined intentions, and not evil perverse mannerisms, and I lead a "good life" helped homeless, taught others, tried to be polite, didn't focus my whole life on money, etc etc. (Although cussing out nubs on CS/WOW/Insert any other game here is probably a sin :p) Then he cast me to hell simply because I didn't believe, but had a good soul, that only shows god has a f'n shallow mentality, is imperfect and frankly can kiss my ass. I don't need god to make me feel better when I'm lonely, because quite frankly If all of these bible loving idiots did actually treat their neighbors with love and shit. The world wouldn't be half as f'ed up as it is.

    I must add you can't debate religion, because the fact is, Unless someone returns in front of everyone IN MODERN DAY, then theres no proo there's an afterlife exactly as foretold in the bible. Everyone says everything around us is a miracle, bullshit have you seen africa lately? Where's the food for everyone healing of the sick, capping of the genociders? Yeah god loves humanity alright, he doesn't step in when he/she/it should, and that just shows you right there, that If he created us, he should be wanting to help us.
     
  19. chillbilly

    chillbilly New Member

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    Good point snoweater.
    The framework behind the Evolutionists interpretation is Naturalism..that is assuming that things made themselves and that no divine intervention occured.
    Evolution is a deduction from this assumption.

    So, it's not a question of "biased religious creationists" versus "objective scientific evolutionists".
    Rather, it is the biases of religion versus the biases of secular humanism resulting in different interpretations of the same data.
     
  20. Neshi

    Neshi HH's cuddly Blue Bear

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    The bible is like a human being; if you torture it long enough, you get it to say almost anything.

    That's what I think about it. There is so much that can't be explained, there are so many contradictions in the bible, and the religious encouters I have had just strenghtened me in my belief that there isn't a god, or anyway, not the god that christians proclaim to be.
    It wouldn't surprise me that after death and all, the egyptians were the ones with the right gods, or the greeks..
     

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