The forgotten Holocaust

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by FuNsTeR, Dec 10, 2003.

  1. FuNsTeR

    FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud

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    Seven million died in the 'forgotten' holocaust

    Eric Margolis – Toronto Sun November 16, 2003

    Five years ago, I wrote about the unknown Holocaust in Ukraine. I was shocked to receive a flood of mail from young Americans and Canadians of Ukrainian descent telling me that until they read my column, they knew nothing of the 1932-33 genocide in which Josef Stalin's Soviet regime murdered seven million Ukrainians and sent two million more to concentration camps.

    How, I wondered, could such historical amnesia afflict so many? For Jews and Armenians, the genocides their people suffered are vivid, living memories that influence their daily lives. Yet today, on the 70th anniversary of the destruction of a quarter of Ukraine's population, this titanic crime has almost vanished into history's black hole.


    Click Here to read the rest
     
  2. blade5545

    blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later

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    Very easy its called Communism I lived 10 years under it.
     
  3. BluntmaN

    BluntmaN New Member

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    Firstly Communism is in idea totaly different from what was aplied by Stalin (and most of the communist leaderships around the globe) who was a dictator!!! The above article talks about genocide and it poses a very good question why is this genocide forgoten along with so many other?

    The answer is given once you read the rest of the article.
     
  4. blade5545

    blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later

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    What the fuck!!! Obviously you did not think hard enough about whay I said.

    dictator

    \Dic*ta"tor\, n. [L.] 1. One who dictates; one who prescribes rules and maxims authoritatively for the direction of others. --Locke.

    2. One invested with absolute authority; especially, a magistrate created in times of exigence and distress, and invested with unlimited power.

    DONT FUCKING TELL ME WHAT COMMUNISM IS AND WHAT IT IS NOT, I WAS BORN UNDER MARTIAL LAW YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS NO CONSITUTION NO RIGHTS NO NOTHING, I LIVED RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE COMMUNIST PARTY BUILDING I SAW DEMONSTRATIONS EVERY WEEKEND RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY HOUSE WITH PEOPLE GETTING THE HELL BEAT OUT OF THEM BY THE FUCKING MILLITARY WITH TANKS, I WENT TO MILITARY SCHOOL WHERE THEY BRAINWASHED YOU AS BEST THEY COULD PICTURES OF STALIN AND LENIN ON EVERY WALL AND BEING PROCLAIMED AS THE HEROS, I SAW PEOPLE DIE RIGHT IN FRONT OF MY EYES GETTING THE BEAT BY THE MILITARY AND THE SECRET POLICE, MY UNCLE GOT BEAT TO DEATH BY THE SECRET POLICE HE WAS ONLY 31 AND MY ENTIRE FAMILY WAS THRETENED WITH DEATH IF WE HAPPEN TO INQUIRE WHY. IMAGINE STANDING IN LINE FOR 6 HOURS FOR A ONE LOAF OF BREAD WHEN YOUR 6 YEARS OLD AND LIVING WITH GOVERMENT IMPOSED RATIONS. IMAGINE WATCHING THE NEWS WHERE ALL YOU GET IS GOVERMENT PROPAGANDA AND YOU NO ACCESS TO WESTERN NEWS. ARE YOU REALLY THAT STUPID TO THINK THAT THE GOVERMENT WOULD TEACH FUTURE GENERATIONS THAT THEY ITS OWN GOVERMENT MURDERED 7 MILLION OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY A CUMMUNIST GOVERMENT WHICH DEPENDS ON ITS ABILITY TO BRAINWASH ITS YOUTH SO THEY PROUDLY CALLED THEMSELVES COMRADES AND WAVE THE FUCKING RED FLAG AND GO AFTER ITS OWN PEOPLE. MY GRANDFATHER LIVED ALL HIS LIFE WITH AN PUNCTURED LUNG THAT HE GOT WHEN HE WAS YOUNG NO HOSPITAL WOULD ACCEPT HIM SINCE HE WAS BLACK LISTED BY THE GOVERMENT AS THE ENEMY OF COMMUNIST REGIME. I LIVED UNDER THAT REGIME YOU DONT HAVE SLIGHTEST CLUE. DONT TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU HAVE NO CLUE ABOUT JUST BECAUSE SOMEBODY TAUGHT YOU THAT AT SCHOOL DOES NOT MEAN YOU KNOW IT BETTER THAN SOMEBODY WHICH LIVED UNDER IT. YOU OBVIOUSLY BEEN SPOILED BY THE IDEA OF DEMOCRACY AND FREEDOM TO THE POINT THAT YOU CANT SEE HOW ANOBODY WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT SOMETHING WHICH HAPPEND IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY IF ITS IN THE INTREST OF THE GOVERMENT THEN THEY CAN SWEEP 7 MILLON LIVES UNDER THE CARPET WITH NO PROBLEMS ITS CALLED TOTAL CONTROL AND THAT IS TRUE DICTATORSHIP.
     
  5. craig588

    craig588 Banned

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    I know aobut it, and I'm 15 so I dont think its as "forgotten" as people think.....:rolleyes:
     
  6. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    Like craig I'm young at 17 and I know about it. But I like to blanket it under the evils of Stalin rather than a specific genocide like the Jews or Armenians.
     
  7. merry

    merry gargouille

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    And so is Coca Cola. The original idea, the advertisement and the actual product are three separate realities. Original Coca Cola contained cocaine... so did Marx's manifesto. Actual Coca Cola makes a good toilet cleaner :)

    I have a 24 year record of living inside the utopia. My grandfather (father's father) was beaten to death by police for sticking posters of a "traditional" political party (later outlawed, but legal at the time); on a lighter note, somebody else spent years in political prison/forced labour camps for lighting the cigarette of a passer by, not knowing that that guy was followed by the political police. And we had the 7/3 jokes, 7 years the telling, 3 the listening :) and yes, in the 50's and 60's people went to prison for telling - or even listening to - political jokes.

    My father was then 11, he worked to earn his living ever since. He had to hide his "unhealthy origin" and he only told the story to mother some five years after communism was gone. And I recall too being nr. 1035 or something like that, on a queue for meat.

    Have you noticed how all dictators have some great scheme/appealing idea that gets them on top of their community. In most cases they are thought of as heroes, before they become monsters to the public eye. I recall an article in Time (sometime in 67) praising Ceausescu (Romanian dictator), and he was quite popular in his country, too. 22 years later his army with tanks and all was trampling over "hooligans" on the streets.

    People shouldn't get high on ideas, don't you think?

    PS @ blade5545 where are you from mate?
     
  8. blade5545

    blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later

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    I was born in Szczecin, Poland the biggest port in Poland so I lived right in the middle of the Solidarity movment which was started by Lech Walesa.
     
  9. toddsmack2k

    toddsmack2k It Never.....

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    Guys I know everyone has very passionate thoughts and views on politics and the things that have went on in thier lives but please refrain on the language.
     
  10. Oblivious

    Oblivious DivrerHaeven Seinor Mebmer

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    Just shut up. So you lived in a "communist" country, whoop dee doo. So did half of the whole friggin world ( and half of the world still does live under "communism"). So did I for that matter. You were traumatized by what happened in your life: I cry for you.

    But that still does not give you the right to go berserk. ( "Oh he lived in the soviet bloc, he's traumatized, it's ok!!!???" )

    Communism killed how many millions of people? ( pick a number ). Now how many millions of people did slavery kill in America? It doesn't matter what a countries political system is; Democrats, Fascists, Communists, Dictators: they all practiced genocide. And it doesn't matter to me who killed more, or who stopped first: they are all going to hell.

    Wait, didn't the Christians slaughter Muslims during the crusades? What was that guys name ... oh yeah: KING RICHARD LIONHEART. Well I guess christians are just a bunch of zealous, homicidal, xenophobic pricks ( pardon my language ), right?

    The soviet system is just another vanilla-flavored regime that had it's run. It will be dwarfed in the future by more belligerent and paranoid dictators and institutions. ( You have my guarantee on that )


    This is the point: the Soviet Union did not represent communism. No nation has. Communism is an idealistic system in which everyone is supposed to be happy, share and get along. There is nothing in the tenets of Communism about promoting dictators or commiting genocide.

    My advice to you: There are many countries today that are labeled "Communist" but are not. It is not right to call them communist. Feel free to bash dictators, I know I do. But stay away from insulting the communist system because then you would be the one acting prejudiced: bashing a noble ideal for something completely unrelated.

    Edited for spelling
     
  11. blade5545

    blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later

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    So according to you I cannot get pissed of about a system which almost killed of my family beacause it was a noble idea in the a book, it was far from noble in reality, human nature wont allow for a system like that even if the intention was noble we as human beings have to have room to grow and excel and better ourselves otherwise we have no reason to exist. The system of Communism is setup for a dictatorship from the start beacuse in order to live in that utopian world you have to have someone who is supreme in every way and passes on what is right and what is wrong to the rest of the society and that will only work with one leader and every body else follows without question that essentialy is a dictatorship. Communism may have been a great idea but so is me walking on water but as we all know it will never happen. Every goverment which has adopted that idea calls itself communist goverment but since human nature does not allows for such system to function without curruption it will become a evil regime. If all people do is evil in the name of a specific idea I will fight agains the idea itself, since the idea itself encourouges nothing but evil behaviour no matter what its orignal intentions were.
     
  12. Oblivious

    Oblivious DivrerHaeven Seinor Mebmer

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    Nope absolutely not, you can't get pissed at communism at all. You can get pissed at Stalin, Lenin or whoever you want. You can also get pissed at dictators in general. But you can't get pissed at communism. ( Without being prejudiced against communsim/communists )

    Communism is not totalitarianism. Communism does not encompass a system of government. It is possible for there to be democratic communism ( as opposed to , for instance, democratic capitalism or republican communism ).

    If you don't believe that communism can exist without foul play, and you believe that humans ( or a part of us ) will always lie, cheat, steal and corrupt: then that is your belief. I can't change it and I don't intend to try. But I will never agree with you because I believe that humanity is inherently good and as a result I believe that communism can exist.

    Am I naive? Maybe. But if our world is destined to be plagued by crime forever, then it's a world I don't want to live in.
     
  13. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    You are so right blade. Some people just couldn't resist the brainwashing as well as you did I suppose.
     
  14. FuNsTeR

    FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud

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    the point of the whole thread was the wests turning a blind eye to a Evil Dictator who murdered 25 - 30 million of his fellow soviets in cold blood , whom was fighting another evil dictator who was responsible for massequring at least 12 million civillians in cold blood around 50 - 55% whom were German born, the only differance being was the west (Roosevelt) refered to him as "Uncle Joe" even knowing full well what Stalin had done to his own people in the name of progress *sic*

    not forgeting the countless millions more Stalins forces butchered , tortured and raped in countries his forces liberated *sic* all this for a failed ideal
     
  15. BluntmaN

    BluntmaN New Member

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    Blade I have not lived in a dictatorship myself but my familly has and I do know what it is like since I have studied the subject. What is the most interesting thing is that what you described is NOT communism which is an idea that is very good but inaplicable.

    Communism is not meant to be a dictatorship but many dictators used it to get public support this does not mean that other political ideas have not been twisted and warped from a dictator. In Greece we had the capitalist dictatorship during which communists were sent in islands to work to death. It lasted about 7 years during which thousands were shot dead for being anything other than a sheep and hundreds of thousands were tortured for listening to a communist song. You see the soviets are not the only dictators and it doesnt matter which idea they say they believe in, they are dictators.

    By the way just because I am not willing to discard a utopic idea does not mean that I believe in it. Another interesting thing is you mentioning walking on water which is a christian mirracle. If you look close to Jesus's teachings you ll see that he was the first communist and also an anarchist. He who has to cloacks should give one to the poor (communists) also he went against established authority and also said that you dont have to be in church or be a christian in order to be accepted by God (anarchist ideas). Other nice examples are the wipping of the merchants in church (anti-cappitalist) and also the well known: "It is easier for a cammel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to be let in the kingdom of heaven." (anti-capitalist idea as well). Certainly Jesus also had some pagan ideas as eat this bread it is my body (cannibalism!!!!) drink this wine it is my blood (Vampirism). The only point I am trying to make is that no idea (including christianity) is perfect it is not tho the original idea that is put to use it is always the watered down version of it that sells. Just because some crasy guy kills a million people in the name of an idea this does not mean that the idea is to blame.

    Funster Stallin's crimes where never prosecuted because it was he who beat Hitler in the end. The allies didnt want their best friend to be branded a criminal. In the end of ww2 no one wanted to point fingers at Stallin because although he was a monster he helped us to kill a monster. The allies could not win ww2 without Stallin and could not go against him either and now in order to not look like criminals they dont want us to remember his crimes.

    Finally remember that Stallin also threw 25 million of his own people without weapons against the Nazis which is also a crime but the end justifies the means right? No one is blaming him of sending unarmed troops and civilians against the best military machine since the roman empire. The reason? We could NOT do it without him.
     
  16. blade5545

    blade5545 Shoots first ask's questions later

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    Leaders with absolute power which do not allow themselves to become currupt are rare and extrodinary but they never last long mainly beacuse peope which hunger for that power and are without morals, unfurtently that is human nature thats why a utopian system like that will never exist, I remeber somebody saying this in one the Star Trek epsiodes "human race is capable of so much beauty and good but at the same time its capable of such horroudous crimes" what makes us unique is also our greatest downfall. And the idea of Democratic Communism thats like night and day it will never exist at the same time, Democracy allows for free choice that very idea destroys any concept of it ever coexisting with Communism, since Communism works on the basis of everybody beliving without question in common idea.But I do agree with you that yes sometimes we do have to join up with the enemy to fight a bigger enemy like you mentioned when US joined with Soviet Union under Stalin to fight the Nazis and when we are victorious we have tendency to forget some of the crimes commited.
     
  17. Oblivious

    Oblivious DivrerHaeven Seinor Mebmer

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    Interesting theory. However, democracy is not total choice - that falls under the heading of anarchy. You overlook the fact that all democratic nations ( all nations whatsoever for that matter ) limit certain actions. For instance in any nation murder is considered to be amoral and illegal. Everyone living in a democratic country "... believes without question in [the] common idea ..." that murder is wrong. Yet we do not consider this to be an infringment on our freedoms.

    Communism provides for some more items to add to the amoral and illegal list. It tries to curb the effects of greed ( theft, embezzlement, etc. ). Why shouldn't or why couldn't we all agree to live with that? To me it would be like adding "Every man has the right to not be pressured by economic circumstances" to the bill of rights. That's a freedom I want.

    We don't realize it but every day of our American lives we fight a war with money. When we shop for a car or a new computer, we fight with dealers to keep our money because they wouldn't hesitate to overcharge us. Even when we go to the supermarket we have to worry about our money. This is the equivalent of intellectual assault: people everywhere try to abuse ( my/your ) lack of information. Why is this acceptable? Why should I tolerate this?

    Communism is safety from abuse, and an intolerance to greed. It is not about limiting freedom of speech or though. Unless you consider robbing me blind your constitutional right? Think what you want to think, say what you want to say and vote the way that suits you best. But democratic communism is possible and beneficial.

    By the way I am writing this out of character, I'm a Dean supporter :p
     
  18. UberLord

    UberLord A Legend in Underwear

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    Where it goes wrong is when some are more equal than others
     
  19. Al_Vampyre

    Al_Vampyre Well-Known Member

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    Communism is an ideal - a utopian one at that - unfortunately that ideal cannot be realised because such ideals are contrary to human nature. Some people will always want more of something (be it money, power, sex or whatever) than wahtever anyone else has...
     
  20. digerati

    digerati Everyones life has worth

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    Yes, we call those people @$$holes lol :D
     

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