The forgotten Holocaust

Discussion in 'Off-Topic Forum' started by FuNsTeR, Dec 10, 2003.

  1. merry

    merry gargouille

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    You make of communism exclusively a moral system, neglecting it's political and economical aspects. I suppose you are familiar with the works of Marx and Engels (as you reject Lenin), you ARE aware of the dictature of the proletariat concept... Freedom of speech? In a dictature?

    As for the economic aspect, communism would be that society (professed by Marx) in which there would be no private property AT ALL. Mao's China. Real life implementations of this theory proved that lack of material motivation and competition between individuals/companies make for a failing economy.

    Just a couple of hints, maybe, hopefully illustrating my point.

    Or, if it's not Marxism, what communism have you in mind?
     
  2. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    Wow, how fun, sounds like prison to me.
     
  3. JavaFox

    JavaFox E Pluribus Unum

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    The reason Americans didn't know about this was because the liberal media (New York Times) was content to lie about it and defend Communism.

    Communism is the most dangerous fantasy mankind has ever created.
     
  4. BluntmaN

    BluntmaN New Member

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    Communism is the idea of live and let live as I already said it was never used right and it cannot become reality as it is. Many ideas are like that but we accept them for what they are theories. Newton discovered gravity, Froyd discovered psychoanalisys, Marx reprinted the idea in the bible and also was the first to question it. Has anyone read Marx? His theories of Human Life's Value? Capitalism is a different system adopted by nature: survival of the fittest and death to the weak. Capitalism is also good in theory but then things like social insurance, free health care, fair wages come into play and as we see by the American model it is going straight to hell and I hope it doesnt drag us with it. Socialism is nice as well: let the people own themselves private business close to strict rules and free health plans and NHS.
     
  5. merry

    merry gargouille

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    Where exactly did you read that at Marx? Besides the melodramatic 19-th century utopia, what Marx brings is the class struggle theory. Live and DON'T let EVERYBODY live, because some are evil, and should be eliminated. Ever heard of revolutions and such...

    Just in case you don't believe me:

    Karl Marx, "MANIFESTO OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY", available on-line here

    This is a declaration of war to everybody else (all existing social conditions?); and no, the purpose doesn't justify the means, i.e. it is not OK to "forcible overthrow" anything, and physically eliminate the "class adversary", for the promise of the - be it communist - millenium.

    "Live and let live" is not a communist slogan, on the contrary, it is the slogan of their oponents, the Liberal movement. (note that by Liberal I understand "[moderate] right wing", like say the Whigs in Britain).
     
  6. Oblivious

    Oblivious DivrerHaeven Seinor Mebmer

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    I'm not quite sure I follow you, but I'll do my best.

    You mention Marx and Engels and try to define some implementation of communism, but this is not communism. Let me ask you a question: what is capitalism? Is it the stock market? Is it the corporations? Small business loans maybe? These are all ideas defined by capitalism but none of them define it. Capitalism is economic Darwinism. Men will live and die by how much wealth they have.

    Communism is also an idea and it is the polar opposite of Capitalism. Communism is about every man's right to live without having to worry about wealth. I really don't see how communism precludes free speech. (?)


    So China has a society without private property? Well what is so great about private property? In a capitalist society the concept of private property exists to assign wealth to a specific individual and to protect that wealth from others. I don't see any need for private property in a communist state. After all, private property has nothing to do with ownership.

    Take for instance your computer, or your car. You own that car because you use it and everyone agrees that it is for your use. You own it as long as you use it. When you die, for instance, you can't use it any more and it is no longer yours. This is all there is to ownership. ( You can lose something very easily if the rest of society decides that you shouldn't posess it. Consider Eminent Domain for instance. )

    Now this is where private property comes into play: In America not everyone agrees that that car is yours. The car constitutes wealth and since everyone wants ( or rather needs ) wealth people will come and take your car. (!) So it becomes important ( or rather necessary ) to protect your car. And so it is declared to be private property and a bunch of laws are passed to make sure that no one can take it. More laws are passed so you can trade cars and trade cars for money. Lemon laws are passed to protect you from dealers. You buy car insurance in case anyone decides to trash your car. You now have a piece of private property.

    Under communism it's not necessary to have wealth and consequently there is no need for private property. You still own the car, you use it and if it is ever stolen it is returned to you so you can continue using it as you should. ( Because you need that car right? You don't drive a Vanquish to work right? You volunteer at the soup kitchen right? ) :D

    Saying that China lives without private property is like saying that they removed a whole useless chunk of the legal/bureaucratic system. Good for them.


    Where are you headed that you are in such a hurry? What's wrong with a slow economy if it helps us coexist peacefully? Because I thought that world peace was important, you know?


    Aaaanyway.... Why does everyone keep saying that communism can't work? I mean half the Western world believes in God! Is it so hard in comparison to have faith in communism? I'm not being facetious, I want to know why.
     
  7. merry

    merry gargouille

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    Capitalism is a vague term, I believe it was invented by Marx (although I might be wrong).

    Communism is an ambiguous term: many different entities from many different domains are called "communist". There are many social, economic, political *defined* theories or systems that bear the name "communist"; capitalism is defined more or less as the opposite of *some* of those (social and economical).There are/were political parties that entitle themselves "communist"; to my knowledge there is no Capitalist Party anywhere in the world. The political opposite of Communism is Democracy.

    Why Marx? To my knowledge, he came up with the term Communism. People calling themselves communists usually refer to Marx, or - without names - to his theories. To put it briefly: the historical class antagonism between the Rich and the Poor will eventually result in the elimination of the former (as a social class) and the institution of a society without private property (the source of all evil) where social classes will be obsolete.

    This is my turn to not quite follow you. You mean, if I buy a car, I don't own it?

    There are too many things here. First, the prospect of "buying" - if not owning - a car will make me work harder to earn more. In a communist state, material motivation is eliminated, so basicly to have people improve their work (in order to achieve any form of progress, economical, technological, scientifical), you need some other form of motivation.

    Secondly, if I own a car and want it to function, I will have to personally assume responsability: keep it in a garage, clean it etc. In a communist state, that car will be everybody's, which ultimately means "nobody's". Someone might come and take the car right when I needed it, and nobody will care about it's state anyway.

    You might say that there would be a car for everybody in the Communist state... Marx thought so, that communism will appear in a rich society, economically functional and capable of covering the needs of each of it's citizens. His prediction was England :) Instead, his theories - the communist theory - really appealed to the masses in underdevelopped Russia.

    So what can be motivating for the citizens of a Communist country? In theory, people would understand that everything is everybody's, and act responsibly towards public property. This doesn't seem absurd, after all people don't throw cigarette butts on the pavement, or paint walls with paint spray... Not in the quiet rich neighbourhoods, where they have better education and less stress...

    You see my point? If the masses are uneducated - civically, politically etc. - the communist state will not work. This was Lenin's problem, and subsequently Stalin's. When the formerly opressed mouzhiks finally had the land on their hands, they discovered they liked private property, and gave the finger to the theory they didn't understand anyway. They dissed the kolkhoz (kolektiva khoziaystva, "collective agricultural property", or maybe cooperative ~).

    What was there to be done? The only thing that seemed to be working was intimidation. To intimidate 200M you will have to push some 10M old ladies down the stairs. And don't be too hard on Stalin, he didn't kill innocent people: they were all guilty of not accepting (or understanding) the beatiful Idea. They were the Enemy of the People, the Greedy, the kulaks (rich peasants). It was communism or them millions. What would YOU choose?

    As long as communism remains outside this world, I promise to have as much faith in it as I have in God:)

    Seriously speaking, I CAN see the beauty of sharing things with people you have no previous knowledge of. Surprisingly enough, in Romania, the only place where your idea actually worked was a small village by the sea (spent all my summers there since 88), where there was this camping site... most people who came there thought of themselves as hippies (which they were not, they weren't dropouts, just wore long hair, played lousy guitar, got drunk and shared most things). What's surprising about this is that it has always been a subject of intimidation from the government, and resisted mostly because some of their own kids liked it there. Ironic, isn't it?

    Re-reading these, I didn't write a good part of what I intended to... The "new man" theory they came up with, in order to explain the failure of the masses to swallow marxism... If Man has to be reformed, than how can these be in it's own interest?

    As for [Mao's] China, well, one has to see to believe. My father taught a course in Beijing in 76 I think, and came back with a lot of pictures and stories. They all wore the same blue clothes, and my father said they didn't "own" them, they - the clothes - belonged to "the people". Some make like the idea, I hate it. I want my jeans, and shirts to be mine, I hate uniforms, I'm sorry if this makes me a dinosaur, but that's the way it is.

    Be good:)

    merry
     
  8. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    Nobody can argue with that without sounding silly.
     
  9. UberLord

    UberLord A Legend in Underwear

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    Really? I think a communist democracy would be wonderful! :)
    As opposed to the capitalist democracy in which we live. :(

    You see - I'm making a distinction between economics and politics
     
  10. JavaFox

    JavaFox E Pluribus Unum

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    You can't differentiate between economics and politics in a Communist system. Both need to exist in full force for that system to "work"
     
  11. Oblivious

    Oblivious DivrerHaeven Seinor Mebmer

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    I can't agree with you. Democracy is a method for making governmental decisions which enables input from everyone. It's polar opposite would be Monarchy ( or Dictatorship, Totalitarianism ) in which decisions are made by a single individual. Communism is an economic policy that promotes the welfare of the individual regardless of his/her abilities and, more importantly, disabilities. It's polar opposite is capitalism which is an economic system which promotes the welfare a few of individuals with selected abilities. Democratic and Communistic policies do not intersect.

    Also I would like to point out that there are capitalist parties all over the world. It is the de facto standard for a political party to espouse a decision making system as well as an economic policy. In fact, I can't imagine a nation operating without either. Parties such as the American Republicans and Democrats are capitalist parties. The fact that they don't chose to name themselves "The Capitalist American Party" doesn't mean that they aren't [capitalist]. edit

    You just can't judge a book by it's cover. And like I said earlier: I think that the term "Communist" is misused, abused and misunderstood.

    But does this "elimination" have to be violent? You demonize the process by pointing at Marx. I don't believe that everything he said is gospel. His ideas were a reflection of his environment, his upbginging and his times.

    I personally don't believe that anything good will come about through violence. Why should it? I also think we are all reasonable people - we can definitely resist killing each other. :)

    You own it, at least in our society you do. When you buy a car in our society the entire society agrees that the car is now yours. That is why you own it. On the other hand we could easily decide that you are a drug dealer and that you are not worthy of owning that car; then have the police seize it. We do this all the time.

    The point is ownership is just society linking you with some object. You do not own the car because you gave someone little green peices of paper. If you want to try this principle out: try "owning" something without society's consent - you will be arrested for theft.

    I think that, at first, people will be less motivated to work without the same level of material profit. But I think we will find other motivations.

    No that car is yours to use and to maintain. No one will come and take your car from you without some bad consequences. Society assigned you that car and if you mess with the system you will end up spending time in prison ( in this case for theft ).

    It is statistically improbable that at any given point in time the entire world will all posess some thing. This includes everything from pants to televisions to 10 fingers on two hands. I don't see why anyone should be upset by this. Would you like to be exactly the same as everyone else in the world? ( Now that would be scary. :D !! )

    This seems like almost two seperate points.

    What is motivation? Motivation is what makes me write these words, it's what makes the world wake in the morning. We all have our own personal motivations. Without profit we can still be motivated by technological achievment, scientific discovery, exploration, love, faith.... anything. People will gain respect from their peers for their accomplishments and this is motivation in itself. I will not lose the will to live just because I can't look at my fat bank account every morning.

    There was a time when the world rejected democracy. Now we treasure it. I see no reason why we can't or shouldn't accept communism.

    You are saying that the world is not ready for communism. Do you believe that the world will never be ready for it? Should we sit idly when there is a promising future within reach?

    Communism is about helping people, not killing them. So you will not find me pushing old ladies down stairwells.

    I think that you are too pessimistic. :D All the world needs is some more honest people like you and a little more faith. Then communism can bloom.
     
  12. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    Like what? Being drawn and quartered if you don't comply? You do know what that means right? Something I've seen communist governments use to "motivate" someone watching the event.
     
  13. UberLord

    UberLord A Legend in Underwear

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    Why?

    They said if man was meant to fly then God would have given us wings.
    Just because no country has tried democracy with communism doesn't mean it won't work.
     
  14. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    God gave us brains intelligent enough to build machines that could fly- same thing.





    If God meant for us to have the internet we would have cat5 cables coming out of out butts too? No.
     
  15. UberLord

    UberLord A Legend in Underwear

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    The point I was making is that when man sets his mind to make something work or happen, what we percieve to be impossible can become possible.

    Also remember that social thinking changes over time. Years ago it was socially acceptable to smoke and take drugs in public. Today it's frowned upon. Then things like divorce, sex before marriage and same sex lovers were also frowned upon but these days are accepted as the norm.

    Today a democratic communist country is impracticle and for the most part impossible with the present social climate where I live.

    Maybe I'm just a dreamer of a utopia that I will never experience.
    But then without dreamers we wouldn't have things such as the internet running up a cat 5 cable into your butt :lol:
     
  16. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    LOL- yeah, I'm sure it'll happen though. Eeek....
     

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