US court calls Sea Shepherd crew 'pirates'

Discussion in 'Flame Warzone' started by Neshi, Feb 27, 2013.

  1. Neshi

    Neshi HH's cuddly Blue Bear

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    A US appeals court has ordered the Sea Shepherd to halt their "aggressive and high-profile attacks of Japanese whalers", declaring them modern-day pirates, media reports say.

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    Do you think US court is right?
    Somebody posted this on facebook and pretty much supports the claim of the US court, saying that the cause does not justify the means, and that we are not living in an anarchy and laws have been made up for a reason.

    I think that sometimes the right methods don't get anything done and more drastic measures are called for. What about the murderer that walks free because of a 'technical error' yet everyone knows he has done it, what is right about that?

    Doesn't matter which laws you live by, all of them have their flaws. Going from there, no method is right, so it's better to do nothing at all? not sure if that is so much better than anarchy
     
  2. Calliers

    Calliers Administrator/Editor Staff Member

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    Some law is a hell of a lot better than no law at all.

    Haven't you seen the movie Looper?
     
  3. Neshi

    Neshi HH's cuddly Blue Bear

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    I don't know... it sometimes feels as if the rich dictate the law.

    If the law was actually about serving justice, a lawyer should have the (moral) obligation to tell the court his client was guilty as soon as he finds this out. But this doesn't happen... what does this tell you?
    Law is about finding loopholes, not serving justice.

    However, this was about the sea shepherd crew being branded 'pirates'. I disagree. Whaling is banned and only allowed for research purposes. You and I and the whole world knows these whalers do not kill whales for research purposes, yet nothing is done about it. Greenpeace has tried the more legal avenues to no avail. Sea shepherd is taking more drastic measures; I say, good on them.
     
  4. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

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    good thing they're not subject to US Law then
     
  5. IvanV

    IvanV HH Assassin Guild Member

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    You know, international waters are subject to some laws and those laws are carried out by (whom else?!) countries.

    I agree that there is a difference between legality and morality, but making a claim on some moral high-ground doesn't give one unlimited right to do as one pleases. In my opinion, beyond a certain point, it is not merely illegal, but itself becomes immoral. And ramming and scuttling vessels, attacking people with acid and modified flares and similar practices are beyond that point in this case. People like that should not be allowed to run loose and do as they please.
     
  6. najiro

    najiro blah blah expert

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    I agree. At some point one should also consider that even though they are fighting for something that the masses would agree. Sadly, it's still an act of lawlessness. However, its just funny that US is trying to sanction them. Well, if ever these people goes to US territory then that would happen. Or perhaps another Kim Dotcom moment?? LOL That would be bad.
     
  7. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    When the ones hands are figuratively bound by laws in which nothing is being done and likely never be done due to burracratic nonsense and red tape to no end, or when justive and the law is determined from the comfort of a desk without really understanding the plite of the things being directly effected, the law is imprisonment without a jury of their peers, without innocents considered and without review.

    At which point in order to serve justice and protect, safeguard, help overall, laws will need to be broken or bypassed entirely.

    Ethical/moral grounds may not entirely be justifiable, but anyone that initiates illegal activities quite often require "illegal" activities to counter.

    It's rather terrible that in much of society today that most people refuse to get involved or completely ignore what they clearly see as a violent or terrible illegal activity taking place for fear of themselves getting killed OR more often than not nowadays, being heaved into jail because anything they could do would result in breaking a law.

    There are tons of senarios this plays out in. To what scale does it matter?

    A Child being abducted, is it ignored, or does someone that witness it just watch? OR do they get in a vehicle and persue at high speed resulting in laws being broken to ensure the safety of the child? Do they go as far as to potentially kill the abductor? Are they then via law forced to give the resecuer a 1st degree murder?

    Many people say "Call the cops, let them deal with it,... blah blah blah" Bullshit, that's a cop out, they are usually to far away or to busy with other unnecessaries.

    Laws are being imposed which remove the simple right of self defence even, are these to be simply accepted?

    While i don't condone the use of essentially Chemical warfar, targeting ships that are doing ilegal things using Wartime style artilery seems fair enough.

    Frankly to much respect and leeway is being given to "authorities" to do whatever they want and say what they want.

    I kinda miss the days good people, citizens, had the right and ability and were praised by police for doing the right thing when someone bad was happening.

    Now were just mostly sitting around with a blinding helmet on and hand fed shit and expected to sit and take it from all sides.
     
  8. IvanV

    IvanV HH Assassin Guild Member

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    That you often need illegal activities to stop illegal activities is BS. The fact that it's illegal means that there are laws and mechanisms against it.

    This group's leader and ideologist openly, and in writing, teaches his followers to lie to the public and that the truth doesn't matter. How do I trust them about anything? For all I know, they like hurting and humiliating other people and they've found an (almost) socially acceptable way to do it. I personally feel more threatened by people who think and act like them, than those they are fighting.
     
  9. Calliers

    Calliers Administrator/Editor Staff Member

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  10. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    There are times when civil obedience is the only way to make changes. When it comes to a thing like whaling I do think it's necessary with these kind of actions, at least to get it up in the light again.

    What's everyone gonna say when there are no whales left at all?

    If everyone always followed every single law you can bet that the laws would be a great deal tougher than they are today. If noone objects a government can do more or less what it wants with the population so you should all be thankful that there are people willing to take risks doing things like this to protest.
     
  11. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    I'm not aware of any revolution or paradigm shifts that took place without someone/something/groups of people being seriously harmed or killed off entirely.

    If laws in place aren't working after the first few months of it being inacted... then clearly it's not working and the mechanisms and regulations and preventative solutions are bunk requiring even stiffer solutions to be implemented.

    It's pure bullshit that i'm not allowed to use even my own fists to beat up an intruder in my house waving a deadly weapon or even just being in there going hand to hand. I'm suppose to take it all, be stolen, beaten, killed instead. Otherwise i face penalties and laws that protect the people that are commiting the crime in the first place.

    Reason here, if someone intrudes, it's better to kill them than to only beat them up enough to tie them up and wait for police. And to clarify, "better" being legally rather than morally or ethically.

    And here in lies the catch 22. Laws that PROMOTE injustice.... it's totally brilliant.
     
  12. IvanV

    IvanV HH Assassin Guild Member

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    1) There was that one guy Gandhi, but it seems that you've never heard of him, although revolutions and paradigm shifts have nothing to with this discussion. Probably ninety percent of the world is against whaling. Positive international treaties are against whaling. No revolution or paradigm shift needed, so no justification of any such sort for going crazy. And we're not even discussing (and therefore questioning) whether the existing treaties should be implemented more firmly and if there is a legal loophole in there that's being exploited. The topic is whether this group of people who, since they are no revolutionaries, fall into the category of armed maniacs, self-proclaimed protectors of the sea world, but also self-confessed liars, should be allowed to keep doing what they are doing.
    2) That must be a Canadian thing.

    If we take a look from the Japanese perspective, Sea Shepherd is arguably taking violent and illegal action against their ships (a position now upheld by the US court as well), but the law has so far been inefficient at preventing such action. By applying the kind of approach that you're advocating, it would be completely justified for them to send a cruiser after the ships attacking their vessels and to sink or at least capture and put them away for a long time. See how the world somehow becomes a less safe place when everyone who feels wronged starts taking matters into their own hands in such an extreme way?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2013
  13. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    I haven't really followed this story so I don't know what they have done. I'm not saying that it's ok to use violince to prove a point, I'm only saying that I cheer for those who will risk their own lives putting up blockades and suck to prevent whaling ships hunt whales and other similar things.

    Have they used violence and tried to sink those ships then I agree they've crossed the line.
     
  14. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

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    No one is above the law. Even in cases where it may seem otherwise, they either don't technically break the law, or they do and the country in question has far more problems within than a single law being broken. Don't miss the forest for the tree.

    If everybody started acting depending on what they perceive as just and rightful, or what they claim they perceive as such, where will it stop? Who will stop the "other side" blowing out of the water said ship or whatever else? After all, they "believe" they are doing the right thing and who cares about the law...

    The law is to be followed whether you agree with it or not. It's not there to stroke your ego, it's there to have order. For those who don't like order, they can go to Somalia and have a look how cool it is when everyone can do whatever they want.
    When there is no law, the right of might prevails. Everything else is fairytales for the easily convinced.
    If said people don't like what the whalers do, go the legal way. Anything else is just an excuse to cover their own ass.
     
  15. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    Trusteft. If everyone did like you say your own country would probably still be a dictatorship and countries like USA would still be a group of colonies. I don't think you're seeing the entire picture here. There ARE times when illegal actions are necessary to make changes, history shows this over and over again.
     
  16. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

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    There wouldn't be a dictatorship since the colonels wouldn't go against the constitution to impose it.

    I can't speak about the USA situation as colonies, from the legal perspective, since I am not fully aware of the legal details of the matter.

    If you truly compare either of them with the gangs on boats who attack businesses and their employees because they don't agree with them, then, wow.
     
  17. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't. You didn't quite read what I wrote earlier then. I just responded to the fact that you categorically say everyone always should abide by the laws no matter what.
     
  18. Trusteft

    Trusteft HH's Asteroids' Dominator

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    I did read what you wrote. I stand by what I said. When you are talking about basically different levels of war, it is a whole different thing than normal day to day life.
     
  19. Falstaff

    Falstaff Old Codger

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    Judas throws a stone in the pond, why does everybody get their boat rocked?
     
  20. Liqourice

    Liqourice Well-Known Member

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    So, you're basically saying we should all accept all laws no matter how unjust they are?
     

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