Discussion in 'AMD Graphics Cards' started by the-bullet, Mar 29, 2007.
I can't "disable Aero" if I'm using Vista Home Basic, right? Thanks.
But there are numerous TDR sufferers that do have a HW fault triggering the issue. The clearest example are those that eventually replace RAM and are cured.
As there is no single magic bullet that will cure everyone, I believe it is wise to initially advise taking a good hard look at what may actually be the trigger. i.e. the HW. Staring with the easy items and expanding out when they seem OK. In that way at least some will rid themselves of a nasty problem. Actually for those people the TDR is doing what it should.
The reality is that you must always start with HW, because SW can not be stable/predictable if the HW running the SW is not 100% predicatble/stable.
If we could reliably reproduce a TDR we would investigate the code and either fix or workaround the problem. And for some TDR scenarios we have done that. But most TDRs seem completely random, leaving us without a starting point.
But like I said I agree. Something is not quite right in the SW. MS? ATI? NV? Creative? Network? etc? No idea where or who, but somewhere lurking in the depths there is a potential TDR.
Yes, timing. Take my case, where swapping out an LCD panel has completely cured the TDRs. None in 4 months, were previously they occured almost daily. BTW: That LCD panel has taken up residence on a developers desk for continued investigation. But I wouldn't be at all surprised if he never encounters a TDR.
BTW: To function properly system RAM must be good but so must the motherboard that the RAM plugs into. So just because all RAM sticks test good, does not mean you don't have a RAM problem. Albeit, the mobo could be the source, not the RAM. This point is rarely considered but in some cases can be critical.
Essentially a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link. It does not matter how strong the strongest link is.
(replace strong with fast and weak with slow)
I dont think it was the ram as well... why? because i also have a geforce 8600gt and when i try it instead of the ATI 4850 it works perfectly with the 2 sticks ... but when i plug in my 4850 the tdr starts... how could you explain that ? its really weird. Having 1 2gb stick instead of 2 1gb sticks really was the solution for me. I even use both of my 1 gb sticks in another system and it works perfectly (along with my 8600 gt). So it clearly wasnt my ram
[So yes, you could say that it's a HARDWARE problem, but in truth, I believe that it's caused by the way the SOFTWARE handles the hardware.]
I believe it’s a software issue myself.
When I had my ex ATI 2600XT installed for the first time, it ran well, all games all applications you name it, not one TDR issue. After 3 days time all hell broke loose. I believe the fault lye’s in the hardware configuration section, when windows boots up. Why I believe this? Because from my own experiences and helping others with this issue, all had no issues of TDR’s occurring when:
1). Switching the ATI video card to another card such as Nvidia. After running the system for a day or two, we shut down the system and remove the Nvidia card and put the ATI card back. Most systems would run perfectly for a few days and even sometimes a week, before the issue starts again.
2). When removing 1 or 2 sticks of ram, or setting the BIOS to default settings, or removing a LCD monitor and even removing a hard drive. Run the system for a couple of days with its new configuration would cause no TDR’s to occur. Then putting back the ram sticks or resetting the BIOS back to its previous state or reconnecting the LCD monitor and or hard drive. The system would run perfectly for a couple of hrs or days before TDR’s start again.
This tells me that some variables within the hardware configuration are changing when they should not. This is why some people can run their system with a new hardware configuration for quite some time before the TDR’s start again. Sometimes when they occur, they either occur for a couple of times, then they stop completely for days and sometimes they continue constantly until something is changed or reconfigured.
This is why when a person buys a brand new laptop right of the shelf containing an ATI card, I say ATI, because these are the systems I dealt with. Got no TDR’s for the first week or so, then BAM, once they have received the TDR’s they kept on coming repeatedly, until either hardware has been changed, or until it solves on its own.
Software issue is the culprit, but is it Vista configuring these variables, or is it the drivers?
We may never know.
I agree that it's Hardware+Software. I just think that the hardware plays a lesser role. I think that Vista is just expecting response times that are too 'tight'. I believe that what's happening is that Vista wants certain events too occur within a certain time, and some hardware configurations just can't meet those times.
Just as an illustration, lets use seconds just to make it a bit easier to understand. Lets say that Vista issues a command to the Video Card, and wants to see the card respond in 2 seconds. Now, not all video cards are going to respond in exactly 2 seconds. Some will respond in 1.75 and others at 2.25. OK, so they program Vista to accept that response at any time between 1.75-2.25 seconds. However, lets say that due to OTHER components in your system, YOUR video card doesn't respond until 2.26 seconds. Now you get TDRs. Thats where I believe the problem exixts. Vista needs to be opened up a bit to allow for that. I think that Vista is just a bit too 'fault intollerant', if you will.
Actually the reverse could also happen. It's possible that your card responds at 1.74, and Vista isn't quick enough to see it, and assumes that it didn't get the response at all. It's quite possible that some hardware is 'too fast' for Vista.
I do find it "interesting", that the TDR issue seems to be a problem for people with the newer/faster cards. In my case an ATI X1950GT was rock solid. I only startred getting TDR's when I upgraded to the 3870 X2. I'm not the only one that this has happend to, and it really seems to be quite common for that to happen.
I am new to this thread and only registered to post on this one. I built a new dual core system end of last year (2007):
MSI P965 Platinum mobo
Intel E2180 dual core o/c to 2.4GHz
4 Gig of ELIXIR 1024MB DDR2 800 PC6400 Memory
ATI HD 2600 xt video card, now crossfire too
I started with XP 32 bit but wanted to use all my memory so upgraded to Vista.
Then the problems started with complete BSOD and later TDRs and serious problems rebooting, for 9 months I read everything here and elsewhere and installed numerous different drivers, tried many different things. Finally one Saturday I just couldn't do anything, just crash after crash, even once when I opened notepad. In fact I rarely got the problem when stressing my system playing games. I wanted to use all my memory so I took the plunge and went for XP x64. I created dual boot to match the two OS. I have changed ATI drivers several times on XP and in about 7 weeks no crashes, rock solid, absolutely love it. I returned to Vista about 3 times in all this time only quickly. Today, minutes ago I went back in to view a project solution in Visual C++ which I haven't installed on XP yet. Immediately, first time in 7 weeks, complete system crash!!! I am going to uninstall Vista and just stick with XP x64. If Windows 7 has the same problem I will switch more over to Linux and keep XP for as long as possible just for gaming. Vista is broke. You cannot fix it at your end so why are you bothering? The crashes people report on XP are probably no more than normal and attributable to the normal run of faulty systems. I watched a video other day where Bill Gates was asked the question "What Microsoft release in the last 5 years would you say needed a bit more testing first" he responded laughing nervously "I will answer that after we release the next version of Windows". Clear admission that they want to sweep Vista under the carpet.
Ok well after much much frustration i thought i'd register just to add something to this post.
I recently bought a new all singing all dancing rig and was incredibly upset to see the "Display driver stopped responding" error message so early in its life. I've been searching many forums and found this thread to be the most active and so have been checking on a regular basis.
I have a similar setup to many people here: Fresh Vista 32bit install and also tried 64bit + Dual Monitors and was getting this error regularly.
I've tried out most of the suggestions mentioned above: Updated drivers, using only a single RAM module, Disabling Aero, Disable second monitor, memtest, reg frags to change the TDR to 10 seconds etc. I'm aware that some people have reported success when trying some of the above suggestions but the fact that none of these worked for me proves that these are not what's causing this issue otherwise i and many others wouldn't still be getting this problem.
I'm sure this isn't down to ATI drivers seeing as nVidia users also get a similar system response so after pondering over this i noticed that this only happens to me after an hour or so of game playing, WoW to be specific...why wasn't this happening straight away!? While i was swapping out RAM modules i had the side cover off and left it like this. Since this i've played a 9 hour WoW session with no errors whatsoever...I was lucky initially if this lasted Two!
Normally i would wait for at least a month before celebrating success but i can't ignore the fact that this happened so regularly and since having the case side off, i haven't had one and so makes me feel this is down to my rig overheating. Have you tried this? If it was faulty HW then this wouldn't make a difference but can't really think what else can it be!?
Another reason why i think this may be heat related is down to the fact that i've had Vista for over a year and had no issue like this at all on my old rig so must be down to the new setup and the heat that's generated now by some of these cards must make quite a difference.
Anyway i hope this works for others. Let me know
Yes, heat is a good possibility, particularly when the TDRs occur when gaming and the GPU is generating more heat.
But heat is only bad because it influences the way all the components work. In fact there are many cases where spot cooling electronic components is a valid technique for finding the weak component. You can still get the stuff. Freeze Mist: Discount Prices on Freeze Mist at ITC Electronics
Also consider the recent problems that NV is suffering through. The problem as described in the press is a perfect example of how heat can influence component reliability. Whether the NV story is true or not, it is an ugly nightmare for any and all manufactures to contemplate.
If heat is trigering the problem you can increase cooling but only time will tell if the problem is really cured.
Post #1203 worked!
"I have the reg key here so you can easily import it. This is for Vista:
I am using a cheap no fan ati card for work, but the fact that some people only have the problem in vista makes me think it isn't actually hardware related.
Thanks for the info, the solution has worked great. I was crashing daily and now I have been fine for a week.
Same issues here.
I get the "ATIKMDAG stopped responding has recovered" issues a few times a week (twice today though!) and I am just using 2 monitors with my HD 3650 and do NO gaming.
My set up is Vista Premium, 3 gb ram (3 sticks but have tried just 1), HD 3650 with catalyst 8.10 (have tried all from 7.6) and plenty of ventilation in the case.
1 interesting thing I have found is if the pc goes into the 3 errors loop, before the BSOD crash and I do CTRL, ALT Delete and switch users so I get back to the login screen and then remote desktop into my pc from another pc I can work away fine on the knackered PC which rules out the overheating / faulty RAM etc doesn't it?
As soon as I login locally to the same pc the crash continues looping and crashes even thoguht it has been working PERFECTLY since the crash via remote desktop!
Just wanted to note that I am still getting this error and it is only while playing WoW. Crysis, Fallout 3, SPORE and Merc 2 all work fine. The time to TDR is essentially random with no dependency on in game settings. It'd almost be nice if I could see this error elsewhere so that I could have more info for trouble shooting.
Vista 64 bit, 8 gb of DDR2 RAM, HD4870, Latest CCC
Can you provide some more details about your situation? I know you've been posting about this for a while, but it's a little difficult to piece together your situation from a bunch of posts spaced weeks (and months) apart.
So, I know you were using 2 monitors. What were their resolutions? Were you using DVI or VGA for one, both or neither? I think they were both LCD displays, but I also see you were talking about their refresh rates. I didn't think refresh rates actually meant anything on LCDs. What monitor did you swap out and what did you replace it with to fix your problem? And, if you have any other details that you think are relevant, please provide those.
Thanks for your help with this problem.
First off I do not believe there is anything conclusive from my scenario.
Refresh rate does impact DFPs but in a different way than with CRTs. Essentially the graphics card is still doing the same as always but with a digital connection the refresh rate determines the rate or frequency that the digital data is transmitted over the digital connection. As you know the digital connection will only have a max bandwidth to reliably transmit the data and essentially cannot go any faster without signal degradation of some kind. That us why a single link DVI is effectively limited to 1600 x 1200 at 60 hz.
My panel that seems to trigger TDR was using 1920 x1200 at 41 hz and did not trigger TDR if set to 1600 x1200 60. So I replaced it with a dual link 1920 x1200 running 60 and there are no more TDRs.
The offending panel is a viewsonic 2290B which is NOT typical for average users. Look up the specs and you will know why.
The replacement is a 1920 x1200 native Apple display. a little more common but still not very common for PC users.
The PRIMARY panel thru all the TDR days is a BENQ 1920x1200 on HDMI.
I think there are two possibilities in my case.
One is that the DVI for the 2290B which is known to be out of spec would occasionally drop out and return causing the display driver a problem to reliably recover.
The other is that the 41HZ refresh was contributing to the problem and the asynchronous nature of the TDR occurance.
In any case, I believe my experience and situation are just 1 of many possibilities that trigger the TDR.
The 2290B is currently on a developers desk to see if he can figure out why it seems to cause problems. But I have heard nothing in a few weeks, so I doubt much will come of the investigation.
BTW: disjointed details is one I suffer in the forums as well. It does make it difficult to get a clear picture.
I have a''small'' problem with atimdag. Pussies, you can not do a good one seriously graphic card? through something when no driver then defect FU**. Play my game at the half featured this mistake but fuck unless it i'm sooooooooo MAD&SAD I bots DLI solutions
I have a new pc
HD 4870 512MB
RAM Kingston HyperX 4giga
Please HELP me!!!
(excuse for bad English)
just my two coins to the pot, the only solution that helped was to disable Aero, before that I've experienced BSOD every ~48 hours or less, registry and many other tricks didn't work at all, after changing registry BSODs are gone, but the system just hanged badly, all this happened during non-gaming work without any trackable order. I have a two monitor system, Vista Ultimate SP1, Q6600, PowerColor 4850, 8gb ram, no overclocking, no overheating, no power insufficiency and XP64 as a second OS worked over 2 month w/o interruption restarting only when it was necessary.
Has anyone tried the 8.11 drivers yet? As always, the first Vista fix ATI has made was to improve 3 or 4 fps on some stupid game.
You may have "a ''small'' problem with atimdag.", but you also have a LARGE attitude problem.
We will always "(excuse for bad English)", but there damned few of us here that will "(excuse for bad attitude)" like you are displaying in this post.
And just so you know, nVidia owners have the same problem with nvlddmkm.sys which is their equivilent to ATI's atimdag.sys. IF you would have bothered to read any of the other posts in this thread you might have found that out. You would also have found a number of "fixes" that some of us have found that HAVE cured our TDR problems.
Read you own post again, and ask yourself if you would be be likely to help ME if I said something like that to YOU.
Post again, ask NICELY, and I'll try to help you in any way that I can. So will other people. Keep your current attitude, and you will most likely be ignored.
sorry but I was very nervous:tears:
I tried almost everything: remove 2 GIGA rama, a class theme, the old driver ... I have from the outset that error. But yesterday I really crazy
Well, we all get stressed at times.
Now that you have calmed down a bit...Welcome to Driverheaven
Have you tried the msconfig/boot "fix"? That one along with turning off AERO is what worked for me.
1. Run MSCONFIG in a command prompt.
2. Click the BOOT tab
3. Click on ADVANCED options.
4. Put a CHECK in 'Number of Processors", and then select the number of processors your system has. , 1 for a single, 2 for a dual core, 4 for a quad.
5. Put a CHECK in 'Maximum memory", and key in amount of RAM you have.
6. CLick OK, Click APPLY, and re-boot when prompted.
Also, scroll back up to posts #1203 ans 1207. That's a registry addition that seems to help quite a few people as well.
You may not be able to completely eliminate TDRs, but you might get the frequency down to something that you can live with until the definative fix can be found.
Good luck. ALL of us that have had, or are still having, TDRs need it
As I've mentioned previously, I've only recently started seeing TDRs on my Vista system. One thing I've done that seems to cause them the most is to enable my 2nd Monitor. I do still have Aero enabled, but, as long as I stay with just the one monitor I rarely see a TDR. In fact, I really can't recall having one as long as I don't have my 2nd monitor enabled. I'll do a better job of noticing the situation for the next occurance.
In the situations where I've had them, it seems to most frequently occur when I've had both monitors active during gaming. And, it's when I quit the game that this seems to happen the most. It may be related to something CatalystCatcher also pointed out previously and that's how Vista sets a limit on the time for communication from the graphics driver/hardware and the resetting of the monitor resolution...especially, maybe....if it's different from the gaming resolution.
OR, could it even be related to the fact that the video card is switching down from 3D speeds to 2D speeds?
I've not been inclined to do much troubleshooting on this as it happens so rarely I might go a week or two without any instance of a TDR.
But, as also pointed out by others, I've had them when simply browsing the WEB and click a couple of keys to activate something I'm viewing. The 'recovered' message has flashed as many as 5 times before the system restarts. Sometimes, it recovers without rebooting.
I can certainly sympathize with anyone who's having this happen on any kind of a regular basis. BUT, again, as CatalystCatcher has pointed out several times in this thread, it's nigh impossible to fix something when you can't narrow down exactly what it is that's causing it. Trying to do 'something just for the sake of doing it' might actually cause more problems than it helps.
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