What is ATI doing to its customers?

Discussion in 'AMD Graphics Cards' started by SFOSOK, Jan 28, 2006.

  1. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    Well my thoughts are that why would you release a card within a month of the other and price them almost exactly the same so now one is obsolete compared to the other. I believe the consumers who had bought an x1800 series card have made a serious mistake where they could have gotten a lot more from the same amount of money. On Newegg if you search for a 512 mb card you will find the x1900 series right next to the x1800 series cards in price.

    Comparison on Newegg.com

    For 10$ more and a month of waiting, x1800 owners could have had a card unmatched by anyone. ATI is pretty much defeating the purpose of the x1800XT to achieve the performance crown. Though you can say it goes both ways for Nvidia also Nvidia release the 512 version of their card a great deal after the 256 version. Now the 7800 GT and GTX is seen as the best real price/performace. Though the 512 is crazy expensive and the x1900 is so much cheaper now it is much harder for consumers to switch over to the other side of the track because of SLI and Crossfire. They have to buy a Motherboard specifically for either or and crossfire needs a different card while SLI will only work with the same one.

    The thing is I see ATI making more and more compromises that do not favor thier consumers. Whats the point of buying an x1800 series card, how bout any of the x1000 cards besides the x1900? Why buy a card now if it is goin to be outdated in a month... and be almost exactly the same price for the newer model? I understand there are certain things that are out of ATI's hands like how the r520 was delayed due to some problems with yields and thats fine and all but in the technology business if your late your obsolete.

    These are a few of the compromises I have seen ATI (not truelly ATI themselves but who ever is in charge of each process) taken that do not benefit the consumers.

    Card Design:
    -High Power Consumption
    -Higher Heat
    -A cheaper way to deal with the heat issue (cooling solution)
    -Artistic loses
    -Imense Size

    Marketing:
    -Making your own product obsolete in a month
    -Trying to convince consumers that its not about the clock speed but the Architecture then not only releasing a card where any new Architecture does not gain any performance compared to competitors but that the card was imensely overclocked and a nasty ineffecient Dual slot cooler was placed on it.
    -Missing the lauch, normally that isn't so bad but Nvidia set the bar a little higher with the G70 and ATI should expect to at least meet that standard if it intends to be a competitor.
    -How to Name a product (mainly the titles Pro, XL, XT, XTX) it pretty much makes anyone who doesn't pay the extra 20-50 bucks like they are getting an inferior product. Same goes with the #'s (1300, 1600, 1800, exc.)of the cards themselves. Lookin in from the outside deciding to buy these cards, it does not compliment the user who would be buying it. It makes me feel (a bit of generalizing but it has a bit to do with human nature) that by not getting a 1900XTX I have an inferior card. My advice? Label the cards what they should be used for instead of making the consumer play a guessing game. That goes the same for Nvidia cards or pretty much all cards.
    -Wait at least 6 months to release a card the makes the previous line seem lackluster, especially if they are the same price.


    I truthfully do love both ATI's and Nvidia's products both but as a consumer (I only speak for myself) I will be goin with Nvidia and staying with them until ATI has fired a couple people, figured out what they did wrong, and start from there. I believe the Speed title is not as important as the consumer.

    I trually wish I could have an ATI card just for their driver support because it is truelly stellar. And I think the catalyst teams should really be given a hand. The hardware and marketing are just not there as well as the drivers and support. The drivers and support can only make someone so much money, but its the hardware the people actually buy.




    So again I have to stress I do not favor either or, just which is the smarter financial decision for myself at the time. Right now I feel I cannot trust ATI and call myself wise with my money. I think the x1900 is and awsome card and deserves the crown. But ATI has given up too much (in my opinion) just to be #1 for the time whivh they will lose, then get back, then lose, then get back.


    The only question if any I would like an answer to the most is this one

    Where is the old ATI I knew and loved?

    Well You probably look like this:sleep: or this:wtf: after reading all that so before you bash it I would just maybe make this thread a way to say what you think needs to change for ATI or what you (the consumer want). I will probably be compiling this into an Essay eventually and shipping it out to ATI when I have time. But I really need to go to sleep.

    So though you may personally hate my guts or think I'm a moron I still value everyone's views. I think everyone would agree though it would be great to have the old ATI back.
     
  2. Judas

    Judas Obvious Closet Brony Pony

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    although you have some points i'd easily agree with.. .there are some i don't... which isn't a surprise....

    ;)


    IMO, no it doesn't realy make sense.. but i don't think ATI had planned alot of the things... they weren't expecting the delays they've been plague with.... and you can exactly just decide not to provide something that you've got in mass quantities and already have a wackload of the next gen stuff pileing up behind it.......

    ATI has several things they must look at very closely..... as for one.. the AIW's are a complete pile of crap... the card themselves are good...... it's the support and software that's utter garbage atm......

    ATI i think still puts out the best picture quality weighted against preformance... they are still in the lead there easily....

    Nvidia frankly has just as many issues to solve.... not all the same issues.. .but alot.... i'm sticking to ATI due to what i beleive is superoir preformance and quality in the 3D and 2D aspect.... as for AIW... crap..... not considering that.... just thinking stickly 3D cards...
     
  3. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    K any bit helps. Like I said its a lot of rambling bout what I think but there are ways to prepare for the delays that plagued them so by not doing so it is in the end their fault.

    And I see what your saying about release and they had to wethere or not because it was piling up. Planning for things like that could well have saved this process.


    As for the AIW that is something I truelly did not know and I am glad I know now (not for grilling fanboys but so I can add that in as a suggestion to any writing I submit to them).

    Anything else anyone can think of they are welcome. I just think the worst thing is the consumer not having what they want carry over into a product they will eventually buy.
     
  4. OldBuzzard

    OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek

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    As I understand it from reading at some other sites the reason we saw the release of the 1900 this soon after the 1800 is because the X1800's were WAY late. ATI decided to release the 1900 ON TIME, since it was ready.

    If anything, that move will cost ATI more $$ that it will us users. The 1900's will 'steal' a lot of the 1800 sales and ATI will not see a very good rate of return on their costs for the 1800.

    Instead of bashing them for releasing the 1900 this soon, I think that they should be congratulated, and given credit for trying to give us the 'best that they have' in a timely fashion.
     
  5. BWX

    BWX get out and ride

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    One other way to look at it is that the 1800 will be cheaper on the street, so you can pick one up for a better deal.. Just wait 3 months and come back to this thread and see what the price is then.
     
  6. Dyre Straits

    Dyre Straits 10 Grandkids -2 Great-grandsons

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    I wonder what will be available around the end of April to middle of May? That's when I'll likely make my move to PCI Express.

    As for the way ATi has released the X1800/X1900 models: I wonder if they'd consider doing a deal where you'd get a nice trade in allowance on a X1800 if you buy the X1900? I know no one would expect to get a full value trade-in, but, a nice size one would be appropriate, I think.
     
  7. Frank_G

    Frank_G New Member

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    yep
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2006
  8. sc3000

    sc3000 New Member

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    People who were smart, waited
     
  9. Frank_G

    Frank_G New Member

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    Last edited: Jan 28, 2006
  10. phongtruong12

    phongtruong12 New Member

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    i dont think fanboyism towards nvidia will make ATI change its plans. sure, ATI isn't the king it was during the 9xxx era, especially with the 9700 pro and 9800xt, but they haven't changed their company goals. in my personal experience, i've actually had more trouble with nvidia driver issues than i've had with any ati cards. when i bought the 6600gt, it was supposed to be "the best bang for the buck," but i was greeted by constant artifacts, system crashes, and reboots while playing any graphics intensive games. after 3 days of suffering, i find out that nvidia botched the PCIE to AGP process, so the card sucks up more power than it should, and it thus crashes within 30 minutes on the stock heatsink. i didn't buy a video card only to have to change out the heatsink or put it in the freezer cause it gets too hot. the difference between nvidia and ati is performance vs quality (graphics and card design). the nvidia cards will put up a few more fps than their ati counterparts, but when the quality isn't there, then why by the card in the first place? nvidia seems to be more worried about marketing and pure power than quality. all i see on games are "runs best on NVIDIA," which means they bribed the company in giving their cards a clear advantage even if some ATI cards will clearly outperform. i don't really see ATI doing the same thing because it's more worried about how the game will look and how the cards will last.

    nevertheless, pretty much any high-end card you buy will last at least 2-3 years. i don't care about all this SM3.0 and "futureproofing" crap. when you buy a $200+ card, it's gonna last, unless you really care THAT much about minisicule graphics quality. my 9700 pro has lasted me from 2002 to 2006, until i finally decided to upgrade to the x800xl vivo (after discovering the 6600gt's failures). that 9700 pro has run battlefield 2, fear, doom 3, and half life 2 like a champ. x800xl doesn't support sm3.0, and i don't really care because not many games have even utilized that yet, and i'm more concerned about gameplay than graphics. it's not like i'm watching a movie here...

    also, the graphics card industry should revamp the way it names its products. XT, VIVO, PRO, SE, GTO, GT, GTX... how in the world is the average customer going to differentiate from 2 different ATI cards, and even 2 different ATI and NVIDIA cards. i would like to see ATI and NVIDIA try to mimic the Intel's new naming system. that way, the average customer would able to pick the right card within their budget. it shouldn't take a computer nerd as myself to be able to figure this stuff out.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2006
  11. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    I'm guessing you didn't read my whole post. I am in no way an Nvidia Fanboy. And I already said ATI's drivers were stellar because they are. But they f*cked up with a late release of the x1800. Plus who ever is marketing the cards is doin a horrible job. Also which everyone fails to comment on in there is the fact that the ATI cards are indeed ugly, power consuming, and are very very hot. The 1900 looks exactly the same as the x1800 and it is just 1 # higher. No one even bothers to comment on the x1300 x1600 because they know it is useless against the competition considering a 7800GT outperforms an x1800XL in some tests. As for the name game both need to change their ways and focus on 2-3 cards released at a time, low end, price/performance, and performance. For sure I believe who ever is in charge of their marketing should be fired. Maybe the same for the green team.

    Pretty much the way I see the competition:

    Drivers-ATI
    Performance Crown- ATI
    Everything Else- Nvidia
     
  12. The_Neon_Cowboy

    The_Neon_Cowboy Well-Known Member

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    You knew it was comeing well now its here :D

    In some cases yes, in some cases no I mean is it really worth $100-150
    for the differences? many would say no....I'm doming it for bragging rights and testing purposes but I don't think its worth the money difference for the money I'm shelling out....


    After all the card was like 6 months late and the prices have dropped
    so you have to account for that... too...

    Because ps 3.0, overdrive 3, their better and faster then the previous generation.
    the 1800s are fine though their is a massive gap between them and the say x1600s. The programmable memory controller that gave those big opengl improvements .. etc it has it's merits


    -High Power Consumption
    less then thier competitor

    -Higher Heat
    less then thier competitor

    -A cheaper way to deal with the heat issue (cooling solution) -
    means big $$$ not cheaper you mean "expensive" as you talking
    better cooling for less money :D LOL! unless you expect thing to be
    sold at a loss ...

    -Artistic loses
    ??? huh ???

    -Imense Size
    = or less then thier competitor the redesin was required
    unless you like some slow momory as the higher the Mhz
    the more likely you are to have problems....


    What the X1800 wasn't immensely over clocked and FYI when it come to
    raw processing power check the folding at home figures again . 3X the power
    of a p4 3.0 ghz where as the 7800 was slower!!! and the app was not yet
    optimized for use on x1k ati cards yet!

    All you saying abut the X1900 was known months ago , when the X1900
    would be here etc and that it would be the new top end. you knew this
    buying X1800 so you got exactly what you knew you where getting...

    The card though delayed due to an issue that had to be traced down and fixed.
    that course the card to fail with no apparent reason a missed placed logic gate.
    one all was fixed , as the all te other R5XX has no design issues and was taped out with out a hitch everything got put on hold for R520 ... then when we get to accounted dates when these cards where launched, the cards where out before the named dates again is good...


    The name matters not... guessing game the detailed specs of each card and benchmarks are widely available... ex... http://www.neeyik.info/
    Its not for them to go to your house and tech your graphics "101" LOL'; its
    Down to the consumer to go out a seek this information


    Good luck my reasons for not being on nv side of the fence are more
    plentiful then any grievance I've seen of yours I could fill volumes ... at
    every level from the cards, the company, their drivers, their reps, tactics etc..

    People seem to forgotten how big a NV fan I was :D and just dismiss me
    with a label as its easier then actually swallowing that big fat horse pill.
    nether company is perfect but I stuck with the company that appears as a
    while to be the lesser evil.

    NV has to chage a lot to ever win me back, and considering they’d never
    do 1/1000 of them I just don't see it happening anytime soon. and they j
    ust keep paddling their boat down the river of crap I don't like. So? I don't
    buy them if I can help it. Why would I support bad habits or a company
    I don't believe in by buying their products as long as their is something
    comparable from some one who does more of what I like...


    nice to to hear some people think other wise though. The ATI guys do
    alot of out an beyond the call of duty. mingling wit the masses so to speak
    unlike the green monster who has started it own forums which is a "start". but it doesn’t make up for years of their head in the sand and their still to date is no driver feed back form only a "support form". and now the forums were they can "control" the discussions . that’s all packed with like hardcore fans and fanboys who love your product , "yes beam my daily program to me sir"! kinda stuff. :D VS free ones out in the open on forums like DH.


    their a business and they all make compromises many forced by acts
    and bars set by none other NVIDIA. For example the years of driver
    "optimizing" that’s all NVIDIA’s bag and ati eventually jumped on the
    band wagon with "AI" it went from being a horrific thing to something
    people are requesting ... So you could say NV has eroded the moral fiber
    of the graphics market... But yoo can nock ATI for trying to at lest level the
    playing field a bit with options like AI. which can be disabled. Can’t say the
    same of NV's to this date...


    don't wory if anything they will pick at what I've said more then you :D
    I'm all good like that. NV fans don't take my critisim well but blindly do
    the same thing later does the same in reverse and as so many of them
    say the pot calling the kettle black.

    everyone has thier openions and views and areentried to them to them.
    How about we get the old nvidia back 1st? :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2006
  13. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    How can you not agree with me that the x1900 uses more power and makes more heat than the 7800512. Its f*cking proven, you'd have to be a complete moron not to admint that at least that part is true. No offense to you Neon cause you seem like a great guy but not everyone is goin to assume you are right just because they don't want to go through the entire thing. I'll get a link from the sites that actually compared the heat and power consumption to that of the 7800 512. And if you looked at the link for the cards that x1900xt is 5$ more than the x1800xt on Newegg...
     
  14. H3X4D3C1M4L

    H3X4D3C1M4L New Member

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    Why do people worry so much about heat and power consumption, these days it goes like this...

    High end gaming stuff = hardware that puts out alot of heat and uses alot of power.

    Unless the requirements are REALLY ridiculous then why should it even matter so much as things like price etc.
     
  15. Tipstaff

    Tipstaff Well-Known Member

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    It should be pointed out that online retailers have not reduced their prices for the X1800 cards for one reason: since the X1900 cards are slim pickens right now they've decided to try and recover as much money on the X1800s as they can before they are forced to lower the cost.. and lose money in the process.

    In fact, if you talk to the distributors themselves you will find that the prices for the X1800 cards HAVE dropped by as much as $100. The fact that retailers haven't done the same isn't ATIs, or the other manufacturers fault.
     
  16. SFOSOK

    SFOSOK 939 Goin Strong

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    If the 1900 were in slim pickens the price would have gone up and Newegg wouldn't have a supply of every brand they carry...
     
  17. Robert McClelland

    Robert McClelland I'm An Uncle for 2nd time Staff Member

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    Whats next x1950? I beat ya lol going be out in 6 months or so I can count you on that lol I'm thinking speeds be 650/650 for x1950 cards which cost of 750 bucks lol throw my 2cent in :rofl: :rofl: ps this a joke : :p :p
     
  18. No_Style

    No_Style Styleless Wonder

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    High-end gaming stuff does not need to = hardware that puts out alot of heat and uses a lot of power. Take a look at the processor market with AMD and Intel. AMD holds the crown for a cooler and faster processor. Intel's upcoming micro-architecture is supposed to do the same thing. Hardware design elegance is what portrays who is superior, not who can produce the fastest piece of silicon regardless of power consumption or heat output.

    But hey, if you have a hot running machine.. it can double as a fancy heater for those cold winter nights.
     
  19. muzz

    muzz New Member

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    Why are folks complaining about the 1800series of cards?
    It was SAID it was gonna be ( and proven to be) late, while the roadmap of the 1900 was on schedule.

    That doesn't mean folks got screwed, they bought the BEST ATi card available.. AT THAT TIME!!
    It's noone fault that the 1900 was on time, and I will not bash ATi for it either.

    It's better than the fiasco that NV pulled because their card was utter crap(5700), so they released a higher card(5800) to fix that issue quickly.

    I don't see what all the griping is about, if folks knew that the 1900 was on time, and bought an 1800, then they have noone to blame but themselves, but lets be real here, it's not like the 1800 is a pile of crap, it's a damn good card.

    Geez all I keep reading is folks complaining about the 1800....
    The 1800 was delayed( and from what I understand it wasn't even their fault, but that doesn't matter...), the 1900 is ON TIME.....
    What are they supposed to do, let it sit on the shelf so folks can enjoy a larger than life e-penis for the 6 month cycle, instead of releasing it?
    Get real.

    OOOOOOOOOOO It's hot, and it uses alot of power!!

    Gimme a break with this garbage, go buy a 9600 or Ti card if it bothers you.
    BTW the new GPUS are MUCH more involved than a CPU, but if you'd pay attention instead of whining, you'd already be aware of that.

    This is pathetic.
     
  20. Tipstaff

    Tipstaff Well-Known Member

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    They are slim pickens. First, Newegg is a US company, and for some reason cards show up there first. As a matter of fact a lot of the bigger online sellers seem to have few cards, while a lot of the others don't. Secondly, even though it's in stock, it could mean that they had a deal with distributors in the US to get them first, that they were on the top of the list to get them, and/or since they don't mention how many they have it could be that they only have a couple of each.

    I have about 10 distributors in Toronto that I can buy various parts from. As of now I can only get ahold of the Connect3D card, and the Sapphire one. However, I can only get 1 of each, and maybe not even that since there is a long list of people waiting for one. As a seller, that is slim pickens. If I called my distributor on Monday I could pickup an X1800 that day, whereas before I couldn't.

    I can't speak for Newegg on why they haven't dropped their prices. I just know that with my distributors, their prices have, and so have mine.
     

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