Why is it so confusing !! ?? !!

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by aneng, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. aneng

    aneng New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Hi,

    Call me stupid ("Hey Stupid !"), but I can't get my head around the mixer at all.

    I want to use my Audigy card to record audio into my sequencer (Tracktion). I have my sound source (usually an electric guitar) plugged into the Audigy's LINE IN socket. I have the input to Tracktion set to "Kx IN 00 + 01". I CAN get audio recorded, BUT - I can ALSO hear the dry signal before it gets anywhere near any VST effects I have lined up in Tracktion. I get the 'wet' signal too, but also the dry (which I don't want !).

    If I close down Tracktion, I can still hear the dry signal, so it's not something I've setup wrong in that.

    If I play with the mixer, trying to find the source of the dry signal reaching my speakers, I'll eventually find a slider that will mute it, but then I get no audio at all into Tracktion.

    I appreciate that some users will want all the extras that the Kx project provides, but for me ALL I want is what I've just described (and of course the low latency for playing VSTi's live). I really have no need for a mixer full of 'TAD', 'ZVideoI2S', 'Aux2' and 'Subwoofer' etc etc, it's just too confusing for me !

    I've sat down and read the manual and the help files, but my brain starts to melt when I do, and I'm sat there thinking "Why does it have to be so complex ?!!!

    Can anyone tell me if there is anything specific to the Audigy card that needs 'correcting' in Kx (Please, don't make me go into the DSP Routing room !!! - I'm begging you !! :w00t: )

    ...or does anyone know of any other drivers that will give me the same low latency as Kx, but without the 'Masters Degree in astro-musicology' requirement ? :D

    Help me Obi-Wans - you're my only hope !
     
  2. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
  3. Doomsayer

    Doomsayer New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Ok, here's a quick fix. On the AC97 page select Line In as source, and mute all sliders except Gain. These sliders send input directly to your speakers, so that's where the dry signal comes from. On the recording page select AC97 as source and mute all other sources except Master Level. On the Ins&Outs page mute the AC97 slider , since it can also forward dry signal.
     
  4. Doug W

    Doug W Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2003
    Messages:
    975
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    28
    aneng,

    I would guess that a majority of KX users feel pretty much the same as you do at first, then slowly little light bulbs click on.

    I have not seen anything else that does what the KX drivers do. So I believe you must finish your training Luke! Go back into the DSP page!
     
  5. aneng

    aneng New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2003
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well, I studied some more in the ways of the force, then got out my light sabre and severed the connections between AC97 Left In0, AC97 Right In1 in the Prolog and In0, In1 in the Xrouting. This was the only way I could kill the dry sound reaching my speakers. (Thanks for your suggestion Doomsayer, but it didn't work for some reason !).

    All is fine now - I have what I need, and shall never more venture into the dark side (i.e. the DSP window) :D
     
  6. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
  7. miguel

    miguel New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If RecL/RecR worked as expected it'd be so easy for newcomers to do basic 2 channel asio recordings. Eugene explained that analog recording was implemented elsewhere, outside of the routing>>epilog connection. There must be a technical reason for that but it complicates things from the user's perspective.

    Anything that is given a record level in the recording tab should pass through routing RecL/RecR. Then connecting these to an ASIO pair would give simple 2 channel asio recording controlable from kxmixer's recording tab, just like we do mme recording. Without this it's kind of a waste to have kx mixer.
     
  8. Andorbal

    Andorbal New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I just wanted to throw in my two cents here... At first, I thought the driver control panels were VERY confusing, but I realized their power from the get go. So I just kinda played around and read the help files, and actually just today I got that feeling where the lightbulb just turns on and it all makes total sense now! So just give it time. And actually, what helped me most was the "Reinitialize the DSP" menu option, cause then I knew that I could make any change that I wanted and get back to defaults if I botched something up.

    Oh, and I must say that this is probably the most impressive piece of free software I've come across! I know that Linux, BSD, OpenOffice, etc. are all free, too, but these drivers make it seem like you're getting a totally new soundcard! Bravo!
     
  9. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,944
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Guys, guys,..after reading these posts it once again becomes
    clear to me that many users don't realy understand kX's concept and it's operation.

    1. The default DSP/xrouter Setup + kXmixer's functionality is for *Generic* soundcard usage only.
    It is not meant to solve most task specific musical application "problems".
    If you are using kX as a musician, the DSP window and it's plugins are realy all you have to deal with.

    Besides some special features, kXMixer is "just" a shell to control the default DSP setup.
    KXmixer is great for *generic* usage, but useless for musicians, so forget about it.
    It will only confuse you more.
    In simple words;
    You can (and have to) realize almost everything solely in the DSP window!

    2. Besides some AC3 stuff, *Everything* goes through the DSP one way or another!
    So if (for example) you want to rec your mic, line, spdif, midi or whatever to an ASIO input
    or WINMM, you will and can realize that only in the DSP window.
    Simply unload and upload the right DSP-Plugins and draw the right connections.
    That's realy all that's to it!

    3. Learn to use the ProFX plugins, (or at least get rid of xrouter),
    and you will almost never have to use kXmixer-tabs&sliders again.
    It's better to work and learn at one place, namely the DSP window.

    All those questions like "I can't get my Mic recorded to ASIO" and such
    are easely solved by just loading one 'Src' and one 'Asio' plugin from the ProFX menu
    without even touching the kXMixer.

    At last;
    There is no reason to be afraid of the DSP window.
    You don't have to write your own effects or something...just draw some lines..:)

    /LeMury
     
  10. miguel

    miguel New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I hope you're not referring to my post. If so it's you that don't understand what's happening in the default DSP setup.
     
  11. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,404
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    LeMury:

    That's an invaluable post! This guy is apparently misinterpreting what you wrote and your generous help to us, and maybe he doesnt even know your most excellent contributions to the KX Project community. Nevertheless, this still goes to show that more documentation would be a great help. And I refer to documentation on how to work with those ProFX plugins and other additional plugins.

    Thanks for your posts, they're greatly appreciated! Apparently, some of us need to spend more time messing around in the DSP.

    Sincerely, thomasabarnes
     
  12. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,944
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Miquel,
    >>I hope you're not referring to my post.
    Yes, partialy.

    >>If so it's you that don't understand what's happening in the default DSP setup.
    I'll try to pretend I didnt' read that ok?


    thomasabarnes,
    >>And I refer to documentation on how to work with those ProFX plugins..
    Yes, after I wrote those plugins I'd already started to write a tutorial on their usage,
    but I rather spent that time writing new 'kX add-ons'.
    Maybe some day. Besides, they are quite easy to use and "self explanatory".

    /LeMury
     
  13. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
    i may write a simple guide on the pro-fx plugins
    i *have* written a guide that uses the pro fx plugins
    http://kb.kxproject.com/dsp
     
  14. Lex Nahumury

    Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,944
    Likes Received:
    6
    Trophy Points:
    0
    >>i may write a simple guide on the pro-fx plugins
    Good idea.

    >>i *have* written a guide that uses the pro fx plugins
    Yep I know. It would be a usefull example to assign a 'Scr' to an AC97 source
    to illustrate the ease of source selection without having to open kxmixer ac97 tab.
    Maybe also a screeny of an open 'k1lt dialog' etc.

    /LeMury
     
  15. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
    perhaps like a descriptional page like i did for the kXmixer, and then an example of how it is used?
     
  16. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,404
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Man you fellows are quick LOL Thanks DJ_Stick.:D

    Hey DJ, wish you could make a DSP tutorial that will allow us to work with Professional programs with surround capabilities (such as Logic, Nuendo, or any future program with Surround audio authoring capabilities) using the ProFX plugins and other addons.

    LeMury:

    "Besides, they are quite easy to use and "self explanatory"'.
    That's easy for you to say, you wrote some of these goodies, but from the view of someone who isnt familiar with them, well, we really dont know what we can do with 'em.:tears:


    Sincerely, thomasabarnes
     
  17. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
    i guess he wrote them to be self explanatory, but that's often hard to do - he did a pretty good job

    n i'll see what i can do about the guide idea
     
  18. thomasabarnes

    thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    1,404
    Likes Received:
    13
    Trophy Points:
    48
    admk's Sonar and KX Drivers newbee guide uses some of LeMury's plugins, so I have an idea of how useful they are and how great a job he did with them. I'm not putting LeMury down at all. What I'm getting at is to be able to use the ProFX plugins and addons in the DSP in the light of LeMury's comments here:

    "Learn to use the ProFX plugins, (or at least get rid of xrouter),
    and you will almost never have to use kXmixer-tabs&sliders again.
    It's better to work and learn at one place, namely the DSP window."

    That is, it may be less confusing to not even have to use the KX Mixer if possible. admk's guide uses instances of src and MX6. It seems the MX6 is like a mixer, and I think admk's DSP setup in his guide is useful and easier to understand than all the items in the default DSP. One thing that I dont know , though, is how to use these and maybe other plugins and addons for work with a surround capable professional program for audio recording. So, if the DSP can be setup with these plugins and addons for 5.1 surround authoring and mixing with a surround program like Logic or Nuendo, it may be easier to work with such a DSP than working with the default DSP setup.

    Sincerely, thomasabarnes
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2004
  19. dj_stick

    dj_stick Apple Fanboy?

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Messages:
    17,575
    Likes Received:
    204
    Trophy Points:
    88
    using the SRC plugin, connecting the front (fx4/5) rear (fx6/7) and sub/center (fx8/9) to the respective inputs on the epilog (or the profx variants)
    that is simplest way i see
     
  20. miguel

    miguel New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2003
    Messages:
    209
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'm sorry for raising some defensive spikes out there. Soul's clean now, I'll go positive. This is from an old thread about mixdown with kX dsp fx. Doug W found it helpfull so i'll repost here. It takes a bit of reading but it's satisfying in the end. Thanks Doug W the dsp screen capture is still online :) !

    On a side note, today I use a similar setup but I've added an MX6 (at the time remote midi control was broken...) and uses other LeMury's plugins like the src's etc, so the same setup works for recording too (through mx6)

    so here's the pic and here's the explanation:


    those red boxes are untranslated VOL modules renamed for making annotations. They consume no dsp resources and are saved with presets, handy to remember what a dsp preset was for.

    I started with all default settings for the card (routing, dsp).
    In the dsp deleted everything but fxbus, fxmix2, chorus, reverb and epilog.

    On the ASIO sequencer, all tracks should normally out to asio 0/1, with necessary eq and/or inline FX. Now different sequencers have different means of creating busses but all have similar funcionality, so investigate your personal choice. So we create six mono busses that out from asio 4 to 9. Now for each track we can send part of the signal to one or more of these buses, then kx will process them, merge them on "FXMix2 (FX return)" and mix them with our sequencer main mix on "Stereo Mix (monitor)". You can rename your busses on the ASIO program to resemble the names of the fx they send to.

    You realize i skipped asio 2/3, well that's because it's sent by default to fxbus 2/3 that is used by kx midi synth too. This way fxbus 2/3 will only carry kx synth audio for selective monitoring/recording. You can change all these routings on kXrouter window.

    More on kX synth: I kept the default "Fxmix2" and chorus and reverb to keep compatybility with the standard two FX used on midi sequencers. Now on your midi app you can adjust chorus and reverb for the midi instrument. To do that kX uses fxbus 13/14 to send some of the synth audio. Notice I placed a "stereo mix" in front of chorus and reverb. That's to make these two effects avalable to ASIO sends as well. So synth sends and ASIO sends are merged then processed.

    You may have noticed that fxbus 4/5 are labeled "2 sends to other kx card(4/5)". They go straight to a spdif out connected to the other kx card (It could be an external guitar FX box or whatever). On the other card you can have a pair of more dsp expensive FX like Max M's uFX reverb and the like, wired similarly to this card. At the bottom you can see a Le mury's "Src(other kx card return)", that is merged with the other FX. Ah, remember that each travel from card to card audio loses about 1dB, so place appropiate stereo gains right after the SRC or PROLOG.

    err.. all stereo mixes and "FXMix2 (FX return)" are used as places to merge signals, so keep the faders to 100%. "FXMix2 (FX return)" has two stereo outs, so i wired one for monitoring and the other goes to an ASIO in for when you decide to bounce the whole "MIDI synth + FX return" mess. Or you can record only part of the mess, like "MIDI synth + MIDI synth FX", simply open "FXMix2 (FX return)" and set to 0% as you wish.

    One last note, I used all FX as mono send FX, stereo returns. But you can do also in-line FX by setting a track to out to a pair of ASIO channels other than 0/1. This will process the whole track, but you will run out of ASIO cahnnels quickly.

    I hope you all reached here, and that it was worthy

    EDIT: I just though one might want to substitute "FXMix2 (FX return)" with a more intuitive MX6. still it consumes a bit more dsp and i only use this as a merger, and not as a mixer (remember that we mix DSP FX on the ASIO sequencer adjusting the send amounts for each track or midi instrument)

     

Share This Page

visited